This entire debate is flawed. Whatever Bartov’s motive may be, he does little beyond repeating the case that South Africa has presented before the ICJ - including the same distortions and misrepresentations of comments by Israeli officials - that South Africa itself has lost faith in. Why else has it now argued that the Court should depart from several decades of case law and suddenly expanded the legal definition of the crime itself. In so doing, South Africa is following in the footsteps of both Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch who, quite surreptitiously, redefined the term “genocide” before then finding Israel guilty under their new and broader definition. This is not an intellectually serious approach.
The facts on the ground don’t sustain any claim of genocide as understood in the international convention and the caselaw. The Hamas generated casualty numbers have been disputed by statisticians so much that in the numbers more recent iteration, it turns out that some 70% are men of combat age. Also, the latest demographic numbers support that state of affairs. There is no random distribution of death among Gazans, something that would be expected were Israeli targeting to be indiscriminate.
And, of course, were genocide the objective, it’s hard to understand why Israel would so far sacrifice nearly 900 soldiers while helping feed the population rather than flattening Gaza through aerial and artillery bombardements. After all, it was Egypt with the support of most of the world community that sealed its border and prevented Gazans from seeking refuge - unlike the experience of Ukrainians fleeing Russia’s invasion that had a clear ethnic cleansing angle to it.
Every Western military expert who has examined IDF tactics up close find a model to learn from if not emulate. For them, the claim of genocide is laughable as a factual matter and unsustainable under the Laws of Armed Conflict.
And notwithstanding his mandatory stint in the IDF, Bartov seems to know nothing at all about IDF targeting choices and the many levels of review (including legal) before approval is given. Indeed, all he is really doing is telling Hamas and every future terror army that their tactic of embedding within the civilian infrastructure and willfully sacrificing civilians is a winning strategy against Western democracies.
Of course, Hamas as a fighting force or its strategy doesn’t appear in his analysis. It’s almost as if it’s the IDF versus unarmed Gazans which self-evidently is not what happening. But this cherry-picking and faulty framing ultimately undermines Bartov’s analysis. It could be said that the Nazis fought two wars simultaneously, the one against the Allied forces and one against the Jews of Europe. In fact, the latter seemed to have been the priority toward war’s end. Nothing remotely similar can be said of Israel’s response to October 7. Its fight is with Hamas and the latter’s decision to fight among, behind and under its civilians while eschewing uniforms (all war crimes) creates the scenario for civilian casualties - which, even now, are at an historically low civilian to combatant ratio - another proof of no genocide.
What we do have is a “genocide” for those who like to use scare quotes to denote something other than the real thing. Yet the impact of the false allegation reverberates throughout the world, bringing on the foreseeable consequences of scattering such seeds on a fertile bed of lightly slumbering antisemitism. How else to explain attacks on non-Israeli Jews, their places of worship and their places of business?
But to say there is only a “war” now going on in Gaza approaches a willful blindness to the facts and context of Hamas breaking the permanent ceasefire in place the morning of October 7.
We now know from Hamas documents that the invasion was supposed to be part of a multi-front attack on Israel. The coordination seems to have failed for a variety of reasons, among which seems to be Iran’s decision to preserve Hezbollah as its shield for its nuclear aspirations rather than a sword to assist Hamas.
While many pretend to support Israel’s right to defend itself, October 7 has changed the calculus. Now the threat itself must be eliminated and in Gaza that means Hamas must be destroyed the way the Nazis were in Germany.
Perhaps the more interesting question is one only Bartov can know: why the desire to lower the standards of the internationally recognized crime of genocide, thereby undermining his own specialty.
And his protest to the contrary in his recent op-ed in The NY Times notwithstanding, the charge of genocide is not one he reached after long thought and painful reflection. It was one he first intimated only a few weeks after Hamas orgy of violence on October 7, 2023.
Along with not being a lawyer, you are evidently not an expert in military matters nor particularly well informed on the situation on the ground.
The reason the war against Hamas continued are multifarious and complex. First, Egypt has locked the Gazan civilians in place, and it is the IDF that must move them as best it can out of harm’s way in the face of false claims of illegal forced transfers and Hamas resistance. By having allowed, at US insistence, food and supplies to enter via UNRWA and other NGOs, Hamas has been able to feed its members and keep paying them by selling excess aid - which is supposed to be free - to the rest of the population.
The war continues because Hamas created a very complicated battlefield over the past two decades unlike any known previously. As a consequence, its tactics have continued to shift to meet the moment. Over 20,000 Hamas members are believed by the IDF to be dead, thousands more are incapacitated with wounds and a certain number have deserted. The new recruits seem to average 16 years old and, obviously, are inexperienced.
As to your belief in “self-driving armoured cars and other forms of technology”, you cannot deploy what doesn’t exist and, in an event, those tunnels large enough to accommodate vehicles are believed to have been taken out. Since the vast majority of tunnels are accessed by ladders, vehicles are not appropriate. This is war not a video game, after all.
As for videos, isn’t it curious that there is not a one of IDF troops shooting and killing Gazans coming to food distribution points? Of course, zero real videos of famine have emerged over the months. So that negative should inform observers of what is actually happening rather than the malevolent PR advanced by interested parties.
As for war crimes, Israel has some 100 cases under investigation, so we will have to wait. As for genocide, there simply isn’t one outside the political abuse of the term. If Israel sought to destroy the Gazans, it would have been accomplished in weeks - especially with Egypt keeping them in place and Hamas ensuring they were exposed.
I’ll take a guess that you don’t read Hebrew and are relying on limited sources of information, but the overwhelming number of statements South Africa has relied on are taken so far out of context that where it claims the object was Gazans, it’s pretty evident the object was Hamas. And months ago, it requested the ICJ redefine the crime - an unprecedented request in criminal law where you receive notice of a crime before the act is committed and not after.
Finally, the war and suffering ends when Hamas surrenders, releases all hostages (living and dead) and leaves Gaza so that its residents may have a chance for a better future. That none of the anti-Zionist crowd call for this illustrates a sad fact. They are weaponizing Palestinian suffering for political purposes and care not a whit for any flesh and blood Palestinians.
One major impediment is Hamas’ expectation that outside support would ensure its survival by forcing Israel - not it - to back down. It is the West’s good fortune that Israel is standing strong. The threat is existential for Israel, even if not yet for the West though, absent Israel, its time would arrive soon enough. Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood, Iran and jihadis have made their goal of imposing Islam on the entire world clear enough. We might think it a risible fantasy, but so did the Byzantines and Persians.
You clearly accept the Israeli government argument even when they don't provide proof. How do Hamas steal the food? Do they have their own drivers and trucks , and warehouses? How do they sell it, do they have market stalls, and shops? Where do starving people with little opportunity to work get the money and which currency is it? Even after the Israeli hostages are released the Israel wont end the war. This is clearly a war against Palestinians as a people not just against Hamas. Thank god the outside world is now seeing what is happeneing and applying pressure against Israel. Israel are the 21st century barbarians. This is an existential threat against Israel, this is no threat against Western countries.
I’ve seen various iterations of your comment, why doesn’t the IDF allow journalists into Gaza to see what’s going on. Of course, they do as part of embedding procedures common in every Western military. But the issue seems to be, on the one hand, to allow journalists to roam freely in a war zone while, on the other hand, the IDF also protects them from harm. This would not only be unprecedented in warfare but needlessly expose reporters and soldiers to entirely avoidable risk.
To ask for such a thing is as deeply unserious as the underlying assumption that Hamas would allow such international journalists to work independently and report anything contrary to the narrative imposed on all the “stringers” that the credulous media already relies on.
People like Piers Morgan go as far to suggest that Israel’s refusal to allow in journalists unsupervised stems from the need to cover up even worse crimes. What makes this argument so risible is the idea that Hamas has somehow missed a trick in blackening Israel’s public image and only some intrepid journalist will expose it.
As to doctor’s reports, hearsay rules for medical evidence provide an important insight to your claim of IDF shooting kids. The doctors are not witnesses to anything and so are not in a position to determine who shot or any other fact about the incident. Even the type of bullet removed is inconclusive given the evidence of Hamas using IDF rifles and munitions. All these doctors are recycling is a Hamas approved narrative. It should be obvious that their very residency in Gaza is entirely reliant on not getting crosswise of Hamas.
I am happy to read your agreement that the years long claim by the UN and various NGOs of famine, intense malnutrition and the like were false - as all the contemporaneous evidence showed. But there is still no famine as such going on now.
The timing of these stories is always revealing. It is no coincidence that whenever Hamas is on the back foot at the negotiating table such heart tugging stories magically appear. There is never any compelling photographic evidence to support such claims - any more than there are for GHF centers being killing fields - and all this in a population where everyone seems to have a cellphone.
And as far as the hospitals in Gaza are concerned, in spite of repeated reports of a devastated hospital system, it is not only up and running but the ones to which victims are filmed being rushed appear undamaged and fully functional.
What is remarkable, then, is the degree to which true ideologues can compartmentalize facts to avoid the inevitable cognitive dissonance that emerges when the new narrative conflicts and often undermines the earlier received wisdom in an information environment where both narratives need to be maintained.
Edith Bruck, a Holocaust survivor returned to her Hungarian village some decades after the war and was asked , "Is the story about the death camps real?" Difficult to believe that there are people who dont believe what happened. They did not have it shown to them every day, but you are shown the horrors of Gaza every day and you don't believe there is a famine. Just like today there are Holocause deniers, in ten years time people like you will be referred to as Gaza famine deniers. How do you sleep at night?
It’s very hard to take anything you say seriously. Your claims are flatly contradicted by the evidence and your defense of the Hamas vetted foreign doctors allowed into Gaza as apolitical is beyond naive. None is a first hand witness to how any of their patients were injured, only that they were. That they are told what happened is hearsay; that Hamas has a clear narrative it wants to sell through these aid workers is self-evident.
But it is your final comment which lets the cat out of the bag and is quite appealing. How you can use what is happening in Gaza as a species of Holocaust denial is beyond the pale but sadly entirely predictable. The Holocaust and its unique connection to the Jewish people have been targets for decades of the anti-Zionists and antisemites. To pretend that those who deny the well documented historical event of Hitler’s final solution to the Jewish question are in any way comparable to those who question the gross politicization of what is happening in Gaza is to display a moral vacuum. Charges of genocide were flung at Israel even before the IDF began operations in Gaza, the charge of famine was first made almost as long ago. Neither charge against Israel survives any dispassionate factual inquiry.
Simply put, there is no equivalence between the fact of the Holocaust and the political fictions of genocide and famine in Gaza. The only certainty is that, as we can all see, people will claim such an equivalence not necessarily because you believe there to be any but in the malicious pursuit of the goal of diminishing and trivializing the Holocaust.
To be charitable, you may be doing this unwittingly but the result is the same. It’s a truly shameful exercise in which you’ve engaged, but at least now everyone can see your argument for what it is and draw the appropriate conclusion.
The Holocaust was a catastrophic disaster for humanity and it happened to European Jews because they were Jews. People say "never again" yet similar but not exactly the same things have happened to other peoples since then, the Srebenica massacre, the Rwanda massacre and what is happening in Sudan, and now the Gaza massacre. Each of these events are disasters for humanity but are not equivalent. They are similar in that many innocent people die in a cruel way, and in all cases the people doing the killing lie about their motives.
Some Israelis accept their government is committing war crimes: ex-Israeli army chief Moshe Ya’alon, said recently that Israel “sends soldiers to commit war crimes in Gaza,” and former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, a few weeks ago claimed that Israel is “no longer fighting against Hamas” and stated it has weaponized starvation in Gaza, and is committing war crimes. The organizations B'TSelem and Breaking the Silence state clearly that Israel is involved in human rights violations. Some Israelis are menschen, but some 47% of Israelis according to Haaretz believe what the army is doing in Gaza is right.
It took the Germans more than 40 hyears before people asked of their parents or grandparents, "What did you do in the war?" Maybe it will take 40 years for the Israelis as a people to accept that what is happening today in Gaza does not fit with Jewish values.
" their very residency in Gaza is entirely reliant on not getting crosswise of Hamas. " You expect me to believe that a surgeon who has left Gaza would still be susceptible to Hamas pressure and would not tell the truth of what he has seen and knows. International journalists show us what is happening in Ukraine, Sudan and other war zones, but not in Russia and Gaza, because their governments have something to hide; neither the Russian or Israeli government cares for the lives of journalists, they have killed them before when they got too close to the truth. The only embedding procedures in Gaza I have seen have been in the tunnels and captured hospitals and no journalist, as far as I can recall has actually been present during fighting. The doctors admit they don't know where or who shot the individual they are treating, but they do notice patterns showing a remarkable accuracy indicating highly trained sharpshooters are involved.
There is much compelling photographic evidence if you look for it, France 24, Sky News, BBC, CNN, ABC TRT World, Al-Jazeera, Times of India and others, even the NYT which generally supports the Israeli government.
You still have not answered my other questions: How do Hamas steal the food? Do they have their own drivers and trucks , and warehouses? How do they sell it, do they have market stalls, and shops? Where do starving people with little opportunity to work get the money and which currency is it? Why are doctors not allowed to take baby food let alone bandages into Gaza? Where are the links to Gaza restaurants? Why don't Israeli military doctors work in Gaza hospitals?
I dont expect you to have a Damascene moment, just a little honesty about the decency of the Israeli military, you know, maybe express a Jewish value or two.
You naïveté is touching, your gullibility much less so. I understand your need to believe a false narrative into which he seem to have poured a part of your identity. I’ve mentioned the videos about Hamas, how it operates and how it maintains control over food distribution - until at least the GHF came on the scene. Of course, if you were right and Hamas is diverting nothing, then all of the U.N. and NGOs are intentionally supplying Hamas directly - which would be even worse. Remember how well fed the Hamas terrorists appeared at the notorious staged hostage transfer episodes. So you really need to choose among narratives.
As for the anti-Zionist doctors on whom you rely, they have long ago chosen their allegiance. Do you really imagine that Hamas would allow any independent minded individuals (whether doctors or journalists) into Gaza.
A little sekhel sees to be in order in your end. Whether you are up to the challenge remains to be seen.
You seem to believe this discussion is about Hamas. It isn't. Hamas is a terrorist organisation. I believe you think it is as well as many governments. It is a terrorist organisation. Terrorist organisations kill civilians indiscriminately without trial. This discussion is about the Israeli government. Are they a terrorist organisation? That is the question. Are they killing civilians without trial? The evidence is yes. You have now decided that if somebody provides evidence that the Israeli military kills civilians then they are anti-zionist (I am sure you consider me an anti-zionist, and on that you are correct). I have no idea if those doctors are or are not anti-zionist, their politics is irrelevant, they simply described what they saw in the Gazan hospitals. Some of them have been in other war zones before they went to Gaza, such as Iraq, Nigeria, Croatia and others, they are not scared of terrorist situations (I am). That is what they do, they want to save lives, even when surrounded by thugs, they are not interested in the politics of the situation. That is why they are describing what they see in Gaza as a war against children and civilians. I do not deny that Hamas operatives may steal food for themselves, they are a terrorist organisation, we all agree on that, although nobody in Gaza looks fat, so even if Hamas is stealing food they are not gorging on it. I dont understand what you are saying about the UN and NGO's. Surely you are not suggesting Hamas operates border check points, and they can stop doctors and jouranlists from entering. The Israeli military are the border control agents. The Israelis decide who enters and leaves Gaza. You still have not answered any of my questions, nor given me any links to Hamas videos operating food distribution points, nor told me how much Hamas sells aid for. By the way Tripadvisor and ChatGPT agree there are no operating restaurants or hotels in Gaza.
The evidence is there for everyone to see, if they wish to. Let’s start with the obvious. The aid provided through UNRWA and assorted NGOs was supposed to be distributed for free. So where did that free aid wind up? Why is the aid being resold at high prices?
Quite obviously it was being diverted and Hamas is one, even if not the exclusive, answer. Under the Laws of Armed Conflict, Israel is not legally obligated to provide aid to an enemy civilian population where there’s a reasonable fear of diversion to the enemy combatants. Here, that fear is fact. So Israel is going beyond its legal obligations in this respect.
Even the recent NY Times attempt to downplay Hamas’ stealing and reselling of aid (all based on an uncorroborated anonymous source, something the paper would be unlikely to publish in any other context) only went as far as to say the theft, though occurring, was not “systemic”.
And to ask how trucks are hijacked and the aid stolen and kept - in the face of videos and, frankly, common sense understanding of how criminals operate - is to indulge in the disingenuous practice of “just asking questions”.
Maybe you should check out Imshin’s online, date-stamped record of food being sold and of restaurants open in Gaza. That might help you understand why there are no Sudan-like pictures of famine coming from Gaza and why children with terrible genetic or other conditions are paraded as victims of starvation- alongside their apparently healthy and well-fed parents and siblings. Or just take a look at any video from Gaza, even those heading to a GHF distribution center, famine is not evident.
And a final observation is necessary. Hamas has publicly stated, via Sinwar and others, that hundreds of thousands of dead Gazans is a price worth paying for “victory”. It has also declared that the wellbeing of Gazans is not its affair or responsibility.
So what to make of its demand that food distribution be done exclusively through UNRWA et al.? Has Hamas suddenly changed its stripes and now cares about the average Gazan or is it because it benefited from the old way of doing things?
In other words, a little critical thought would show the cognitive dissonance with which you are many others should struggling. But when the evidence is at odds with your preconceptions, it may be time to reevaluate the latter.
One has to ask, why does not the Israeli government allow international journalists into Gaza? International journalists would confirmor deny what you have said.
Many British, Scandinavian and American surgeons who have been working in Gazan hospitals are very clear that the children they have seen were shot by Israeli bullets, and most of those children do not have genetic issues. And they are willing to swear in front of a court of law what they have seen. Prior to Israel stopping trucks entering Gaza there was not the starvation that is seen today, so one can assume that stopping the trucks enter and refusing UNWRA doing its work are the causes of the starvation.
I have asked you for the evidence that the food is being diverted, yet you and the Israeli government provide none. Those doctors say now when they enter Gaza they are not allowed to take into the country baby food let alone bandages. Give me a link to Gaza restaurants. You will note that those running to a GHF distribution center,are the ones who are still strong enough to do that even though they appear very thin.
You say under the Laws of Armed Conflict, Israel is not legally obligated to provide aid to an enemy civilian population, except when an army takes over a hospital it is expected to keep it running for the civilian population. In addition Jewish values require that children should not be punished because of what their parents did.
You say IDF tactics are a model to learn from for Eestern militaries. In Octotber 2023 Hamas had some 30,000 men in arms and Israel had hundreds of thousands of soldiers and many in reserve and cutting edge technology at its disposal yet 20 months later the war continues. Incredibly the IDF still claim Hamas uses tunnels. Surely after 20 months, with drones, self-driving armoured cars and other forms of technology if they were a competent army they would have destroyed the tunnel system.
Israel does not allow international journalists into Gaza for the two simple reasons; they would see the lack of discipline amongst Israeli soldiers (I believe a 19 or 20 year old can be a sergent whereas in European armies they are three or four years older), the indiscriminate killing by the IDF, and the targeting of children. The facts on the ground do show that genocide is being committed. Others have cogently argued that the war is the only thing that keeps Netanyahu in power.
I am not a lawyer, but my reading of the case before the ICJ does not fit with your statements.
Wait a second, doesn’t Iran present itself as one of the greatest defenders and supporters of Palestine? How can that possibly be true if, as you claim, it will use enriched dirty bombs to make Israel uninhabitable for centuries? Are these bombs to be targeted only at Jews while sparing the Muslims?
These questions expose the inherent hypocrisy (not to say outright delusions) of the pro-Iran contingent.
As your comment suggests an alternate universe, one that redefines the meaning of a Pyrrhic victory to include a humiliating defeat (at least King Pyrrhus won his battle even if at a terrible cost), you would appear well qualified to answer these hypothetical questions.
Did you not read the original post? I was responding to the poster’s hypothetical, hence the phrase “as you claim”. The possibility of such a bomb has we bruited by others - even as it exposes the hollowness of the longstanding argument that Iran’s massive nuclear program, much of which is either underground or at places Iran has declared off-limits to IAEA inspection, is solely for peaceful purposes.
No he isn't. You were right asking for a source because that was just speulation of one person what could be done. And any talk of an Israeli about another countries nuclear program is irrelevant considering they killed 2 Kennedies to get and keep their nuclear weapons program and threaten to blow up western cities with it. Iran's nuclear weapons program evidently was just peaceful purpose until it got attacked so much and bombed directly by Israel and the us. Now... Now one has to assume they got multipple working nukes.
Fortunately, Iran doesn't even need nuclear warheads to end Israel. It was clearly demonstrated that Iran can paste tiny, Israel with hypersonic missiles from end to end, with impunity...next time, those hypersonics may carry highly enriched "dirty bomb" warheads that will render Israel uninhabitable for centuries.
A criminal warned is a criminal whose self destruction we can watch with equanimity.
Although: beware, beware. Israel is cutting deals with friendly or subverted (whichever) nations. They have already arranged for inswarming Israelis to steal Argentinians' pensions. To arms to arms, lock your treasuries, people of the world. This is how they govern themselves when they realize they're in danger where they are, and might not enjoy being there so much anymore.
That’s a whole lot of words (peppered fully with outright lies) to explain that Jews CANNOT commit genocide because they are Jewish, and whatever Jews do is in God’s name.
We share a faith tradition, Charles. So far, I have watched as Israel has broken every one of the Ten Commandments. Taking the Lord’s name is vain being chief among them. The time will come when each and every person cheering this will turn and look upon what you have wrought and turn into a pillar of salt.
I usually refrain from dealing with people who both deploy strawmen rather than argument and have reading comprehension issues.
For you to conclude that anyone is “cheering” what is happening in Gaza suggests you are guilty of both. That you seem incapable of distinguishing reality from Hamas spoon-fed propaganda suggests, at this point, a willful lack of discernment bordering on credulousness.
If you wish to engage in a discussion, try addressing the merits of the species of the arguments advanced. Everyone is on to the general dismissal strategy to cover intellectual impoverishment.
There aren’t any merits to your argument. We don’t need “Hamas Propaganda” to see that the State of Israel is committing mass murder, calling it religion, and starving children to death- gleefully. All one needs is to listen to the Israeli leadership in their own words.
And now, I will disengage because I dont spend time with evil people.
All of your words above may have been responsive to Bartov but it entirely misses the point of Magid's article. You seem to have missed the concluding sentence:
"The cliff, however, may not be the fate of the state. The state, as Harari argues correctly in my view, will survive. Rather, the cliff is a 2000-year-old wisdom tradition called Judaism."
Magid is not arguing Bartov's case with regard to genocide although he is pointing out that there is a difference between saying Israel is not committing genocide in Gaza and Israel CANNOT commit genocide because of history. What Magid IS arguing is that Judaism itself is burning because of what is happening in Gaza, whatever you want to call it, is an egregious violation of Jewish religious values. Israel as a state will survive and it will be a state the majority of residents are jews at least ethnically. But I personally don't think you can call it a Jewish state in the sense that I have always used that term ever again. I am with Magid on his assessment of the damage being done to Judaism itself.
First, I was addressing Bartov’s argument. Second, neither you nor I nor anyone else not directly involved knows what is happening in Gaza. So to pretend that what the IDF may be doing is a reach. As I pointed out earlier, every Western military officer or expert who has spent time in Gaza and with the IDF conclude that it has acquitted itself remarkably well and has been pathbreaking in its battle against Hamas. Unfortunately, Israel is losing the propaganda war - but that was a war, as Hamas always knew, was rigged against it.
As for Jewish values, the primary one is safeguarding the Jewish people. For Magid or anyone else to pretend to pass judgment on whether Israel is living up to some vague and ill defined “Jewish values” is beyond arrogant.
What is seemingly motivating Magid and Bartov, among other things, is a deep seated antipathy to Netanyahu and frustration at the collapse of the Left in Israel. These emotions find their expression in a desire to exploit this war for a partisan end: ending Netanyahu’s career. It’s one thing to engage in such politicking on internal issues, it’s another matter and far different in its consequences to do so in the middle of a war where they must be aware that their critique will be weaponized against not only the state of Israel but, as we’ve seen in far too many occasions, against Jews worldwide.
If Magid and Bartov put forward reasonable alternatives to the prosecution of the war that would be one thing. But accepting Hamas’ narrative and basing a strange critique that offers no plan speaks to a different, not to say, troubling agenda.
I am Jewish and the 613 commandments in Torah do not include protecting the Jewish people above all else. Indeed the general argument that has been made for centuries is that the Torah protects the Jewish people. I don't think you understand how to discuss theology which is a separate issue from whatever it is you are talking about. To some of us the Jewish RELIGION is also important. Lets concede that the conduct of the war is necessary and follows approved rules of engagement and Israel could have done nothing to protect Palestinian civilians that would not have endangered Israel's existence. That does not mitigate the consequences Magid points out with his concluding sentence.
There is a book you might read called Constantines Sword which is about the consequences for Catholicism of its centuries of persecution. The author James Carrol, a former priest, makes the argument that the church without violating its own theology could have zigged instead of zagging many times. The same is true for Israel's founders and, indeed, the zionist movement. Try reading Martin Buber's A Land of Two Peoples and you can see where the decision points were.
So on October 7 were all alternative paths eliminated by Hamas? perhaps so. The end point is the same. Judaism as we know it will never be the same regardless of the outcome for Israel itself. That is Magid's point. I think you are arguing that Israel is the sum total of Judaism and there in lies the disconnect between us.
Given your self description, you are actually a Karaite. An essential part of Judaism is, of course, the centuries of rabbinic interpretation including the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds and much else besides. If protecting the wellbeing of Jews is not a first priority, then nothing is left. I’m sorry that you seem to believe that the modern version of “tikkun olam” is some universal Jewish vision to help everyone else. It’s not, again the first priority is the Jewish people who are more than just a “religion” - that is to forget that such categories didn’t exist at Judaism formation during the Iron Age.
Israel is not the “sum total of Judaism”. Nothing in what I wrote can suggest that, so that is a straw horse among others you propose including your book list.
The reality you seem to cower from is the realization that whatever Israel did, it was going to encounter criticism. The rules change whenever Israel is involved. You propose no alternatives to the conduct of the war, or even to quell the massive disinformation campaign that is part of Hamas’ strategy that many in the world glom onto in a bit of credulousness that provides them cover to pour out their bile on the Jewish State.
You might have noticed that cries of genocide and much else started on October 8, while Israel was battling Hamas inside Israel. I know it’s difficult to deal with the outpouring of hatred, but your targets are misdirected - and you join Magid and Bartov in their error. You should be protesting Hamas as it alone holds the keys to ending Gaza’s suffering … and it is only in the weak position it’s in because of the IDF. On the battlefield, might makes right. If you really believe that Hamas can be negotiated into non-existence around some bargaining table, naïveté or a fear that violence might be the only way to destroy evil - which might not accord with your worldview - might be the reason.
You might wish to ponder this insight. “Anyone who has pity on the cruel, will show cruelty to the merciful.” (Midrash Tanchuma)
Glad you’ve agreed to expand beyond the Torah as the source for Jewish teaching. That said, stringing together cherry picked quotes taken from their context does not an argument make.
Ironically, you seem to be part of that cohort that would have the world’s lone Jewish state act according to Christian principles that no actual Christian country has ever abided by in wartime.
Or perhaps you’re the model of the liberal Robert Frost derided as a person “too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel.” Hard to say why you are so resistant to the very concept of self-preservation of the Jewish people as a primary directive of its identity and practice. There’s a reason it has survived for millennia.
Hmm. I am not a karaite - having looked that up - I am a garden variety reform Jew. I am currently reading Daf Yomi and I study with my Rabbi. Both those things include midrash and aggadah obviously.
You might be interested in some teaching sources from one of my favorite teachers Shai Held. He is a conservative Rabbi and a zionist of that helps you out:
A few sources for study, consideration, and discussion:
If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat; If he is thirsty, give him water to drink.
2. Midrash Mishle there
אם רעב שונאך האכילהו לחם ואם צמא השקהו מים. אמר ר' חמא בר חנינא אעפ"י שהשכים להורגך ובא רעב או צמא לתוך ביתך, האכילהו והשקהו, למה, [כב] כי גחלים אתה חותה על ראשו וה׳ ישלם לך, אל תקרי ישלם לך, אלא ישלימנו לך.
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him bread; and if he is thirsty, give him water.” Said R. Hama bar Hanina: Even though he intended to kill you, yet he arrived hungry or thirsty in your house, feed him and give him water. Why? “For you will be heaping live coals upon his head, and the Lord will reward (yeshalem) you”—do not read “will reward you” but rather “will reconcile him (yashlimenu) with you.”
3. Ralbag there
אם רעב שונאך - לא תמנע מלחון עליו להאכילו לחם ואם הוא צמא השקהו מים כי זאת מדה משובחת מאד להיטיב לכל האנשי' לאוהב ולשונ' ואם ירע לבך איך תיטיב לו תחת אשר עשה לך רעה תדע באמת כי אתה עם גמלך בזה הראוי לנפשך מטוב המדו' הנה לוקח נקמתך ממנו:
“If your enemy is hungry”—Do not refrain from showing him grace and feeding him bread. “And if he is thirsty, give him water”—For this is an extremely praiseworthy character trait to be good to all people, to a friend and to an enemy. But if you are bothered by the thought, how can you be good to him when he did bad to you? Know that in truth, in bestowing one of the greatest of virtues upon your own soul, you are taking revenge on him.
4. Peirush Shai Olamot to Proverbs
שונאך. עאכו״כ בנו ושכנו
Your enemy. All the more so his child and neighbor.
(Edited: To be clear, "Shai Olamot" is me.)
(Edited: To be clear, "Shai Olamot" is me.)
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Let us leave Hamas out of this. But not the civilians in Gaza who are worthy of our compassion and to whom the above surely applies.
“Genocide” would be use of fuel-air munitions and incendiaries to blast and incinerate everything above ground. “Genocide” would be gathering all Gazans into prison camps then executing everyone except a minority kept for use as slave labor…until those slaves are too weak to continue then execute them too.
By that definition no genocide has ever been committed except the Holocaust and that is not true. What is going on in Gaza and what I believe is Israel's ultimate intention more closely resembles the Turkish genocide against the Armenians. Two things to consider about that genocide. First, It is known to have been one of the reasons Hitler believed he could get away with killing all the Jews in Europe. And second, I know many people of Armenian descent who live in the Boston suburbs and none of them have forgotten or forgiven - 4 generations later. The list of peoples who large diaspora's in America who have not forgotten or forgiven theier history is of course longer than that. History will not be kind to us in the end.
Charles Knapp, I find it interesting how you write a lengthy piece observing a flaw in argument and omittance of certain aspects while you yourself proceed to omit the most crucial of facts. One of them being the many statements from members of the Israeli government relating to annihilating Gaza or endorsing fascist ideologies, from Netanyahu downwards: Smotrich, Ben Givr, Katz, Chickli, Regev, Golan, Zohav, Karhi, Gamliel, Strook, Eliyahu - all of them made statements that would chill the blood in anybody's veins. Amsalem called for a civil war to silence all that is left of a progressive left, while Levin fights the High Court every time it tries to show that current Israeli practices are in breach of law.
Further, you fail to mention that the very same government has obstructed, and for a lengthy period totally blocked, vital food and medical supplies to enter Gaza, thus weaponising such vital supplies, which in itself constitutes a war crime.
Third, you omit the many reasonable claims from renowned scholarly institutions and international doctors that the death toll in Gaza is very likely underestimated.
Fourth, you do not mention the numerous instances where IDF soldiers recorded themselves gleeing while they were blowing up structures in Gaza.
Fifth, you omit the well documented contempt with which the relatives of hostages have regularly been met with by members of the Knesset.
Sixth, you ignore the fact that practically all infrastructure deemed necessary for survival of an entire group - social, educational, cultural, medical, economic, agricultural - has been destroyed in Gaza, to a degree that it most likely can not be repaired, certainly not without outside assistance - and here we are at the legal definition of genocide: some of it after it has been secured by IDF and there was no possible threat of it being abused by Hamas.
Seventh, you omit to mention that Israel has targeted journalists in Gaza in an unprecedented way and prohibited independent journalists from entering Gaza, thus controlling the type of information coming out of Gaza.
Eighth, you omit to note that Israel has breeched an active ceasefire by completely blocking talks to proceed to the next phase due to commence in February 2025, and launching an attack killing more than 400 people in one day, most of them civilians, in March 2025.
Perhaps most tellingly, you do not even mention the realities of the expansionist policies in the occupied West Bank or that Palestinians there are subject to military law with little to no chance of appealing against injustices committed against them - not only since 7th October. Since then, the situation there has deteriorated drastically.
As I see it, it is on you to take a deep look at yourself before accusing others of flawed argument.
The only thing you are channeling is Hamas’ increasing desperation as it realizes it has not only destroyed Iran and its “ring of fire” but is all alone after the Arab League’s declaration that Hamas needed to disarm and leave Gaza.
Rather than demand that Hamas surrender, its supporters double down on their push of Hamas propaganda. It’s a strange position to be in for those who profess devotion to the welfare of Gazans. From the beginning, they turned their backs on Gazans, joining with Hamas in seeing them as canon fodder.
The war ends the sooner the better for all with Hamas’ clear defeat. Then, as has happened in every other conflict, investigations can take place to analyze what happened in Gaza and how the war was prosecuted.
People like Bartov will be shown to be correct if the results of those investigations support his claims. Based on what is known at the moment, including the targeting protocols, civilian warnings and relocations, allowing in aid (even if the NGOs fail on the distribution end - an expected result as such a thing has never been attempted in any other war and is not required under the LOAC), such vindication appears highly unlikely.
In the meantime, I suppose you can still dream your malevolent dreams about Jews. Just don’t expect to be taken seriously by any careful and open minded observer.
I see there is no talking to you. You seem to blindly follow the path that an extremist government is laying out, ignoring not only that government's clear statements over the last couple of years (even days!) but Israel's policy and practice with regard to Palestinians over the last few decades. Your wild throw of accusation without providing any on-the-point argument is hollow, consumed with hatred you're eschewing every point I tried to make and accuse others of one-sided was and worse. Not with one word I defended what Hamas per se stands for. I guess it's pointless to tell you that it's rise to power was very much welcomed and even supported by Netanyahu and those of similar mindset or that according to Haim Rubinstein, a great number of hostages could've been back in their homes within days of their capture - s.Interview in the Times of Israel: https://www.timesofisrael.com/no-doubt-netanyahu-preventing-hostage-deal-charges-ex-spokesman-of-families-forum/
In one I do agree with you, however: history will tell. I fear, it'll not be favourable for Israel. And future generations will suffer, perhaps not economically but certainly psychologically.
All you have written illustrates a complete incomprehension of Israeli politics and the goals of the Muslim Brotherhood for Jewish sovereignty.
Simply put, if your understanding of Israel’s ultimate goal for Palestinians had even a grain of truth to it, they would have been destroyed sometime over the past 77 years. Even after the savagery of October 7, if your understanding was correct, the IDF would have simply flattened Gaza in a week or so rather than risk its soldiers lives.
It’s not as if it was the organized pro-Hamas demonstrations that began October 8 that stayed Israel’s hand, so please spare us your foolish talking points.
And speaking of talking points, the initial - and to some extent continuing - Hamas demand amounted to nothing less than immunity for its October 7 genocide (and that is a correct use of the term under the Srebrenica case decided by the ICFY), a release of thousands of imprisoned killers and a right to remain in control of Gaza to rearm and try again. No country would ever accede to such a surrender unless it were defeated on the field of battle. And only the most credulous beloved (even today) that Hamas would release every hostage and not hold some back as future bargaining chits. Remember their claims of “losing contact” or, as in the notorious case of Shiri Bibas returning the wrong corpse?
Maybe stop focusing on an event you clearly do not understand for ideological or other reason, and look at the big picture instead. Sinwar’s strategic miscalculation of October 7 has, thanks to the IDF, resulted in the humiliation and potential destabilization of the Iranian regime, and an opportunity for the Lebanese and Syrians to rid themselves of Iranian overlordship (the Lebanese just sent Iran’s visiting foreign minister packing and Syria refused him overflight rights - and if you don’t appreciate what that means, you are beyond help).
Also Israel’s inevitable and upcoming defeat of Hamas in Gaza City and the remaining camps will provide the Palestinians with yet another opportunity to reorient their goal away from a fantasy that has brought them nothing tangible and toward cooperating and collaborating with Israel - but only after they formally acknowledge it as the nation state of the Jewish people, as conceived by the international community going back to 1922.
If they miss this opportunity, it may be their last, as the Saudis and others will join an expanded Abraham Accords. That’s the future, unless Turkey or whatever is left of Iran tries to sidetracked the effort. The real world is unforgiving and the Palestinians have a choice: join in a march to a brighter future for all or inevitably reassert their general Arab identity - whether Syrian or Egyptian - and shed their recent national identity which has brought them only self-inflicted humiliation.
To the West, it’s an easy choice. In honor-shame societies, such as exist in Muslim countries, it is one fraught with challenges.
Your opinion is flawed, and just that: an opinion. Anyone would know, had Israel simply "done away" with the Palestinians before now in an obvious way, it would have lost its Western allies and become a pariah state. Now Netanyahu's government seized the opportunity and is blatantly pursuing Greater Israel - at the cost of the remaining hostages, just listen to what ministers are saying. As for the Palestinians, they are presently looking for getting a deal with some wartorn African country to get rid of them. Obviously you also didn't hear of the enthusiastic endorsement of Trump's Riviera plan or Katz's plan of a no-exit camp at annihilated Rafah or the huge settlement proposal in the West Bank from a few days ago. I recommend to go and watch some news away from government channels from time to time. Goodbye.
This is a very long and convoluted way of shouting "No! no! NO!" while covering your ears and ignoring all the arguments of the three essays, this one and the two it's analysing.
The constant insistence on making October 7th THE special event that "started it all", like if everything was "just fine" before that terrible day, is an excuse to be ashamed of. As mentioned in the article, back in the 80s Yeshayahu Leibowitz and others already said that the oppression of Palestinians, the negation of Palestinians as a people were leading Israel towards "Judeo-Nazism". That's his words.
The state of Israel and its crooked Zionist ideology tainted with supremacism and racism as it is now has become not only a menace to Judaism, but a menace to all Jews around the world. See the work of Ella Shohat.
Jews should reconcile with life in the diaspora, and maybe anti-Zionism which was prevalent among European Jewish communities until 1940. Who wants to live in a segregated ethnoreligious state? Certainly not me, thank you very much.
Thank you. I'm sharing this with a team of Jewish Israelis, Palestinians from Israel and the West Bank and others who are involved in Nonviolent Communication initiatives there. I would like to add to the important points you articulate that it is crucial to use this understanding to generate empathy for the millions of people who just can't absorb the shocking and dismal precipice where we now stand. Not to meet the hatred and violence and supremacy with more of the same.
It’s not genocide if the “victim” group agrees to be killed. That’s what they agree to. If they want food, water, health, and life they pretty much know how to get it. Stop shooting, lay down their weapons, let the hostages go. That’s it. They don’t want to do that. That’s their choice. But don’t call it genocide. Call it suicide.
Dear Rexi, thank you for letting me know how my response lands with you. And that is so far from what is in my heart and my concern. I'm wondering if you could help me create a message that both makes clear that the attacks and genocide against the Palestinian people is the main horror and also holds empathy for all the people who don't have the capacity to face that. I really would appreciate help from you or others to create that messaging. Thank you so much.
The Naaahqbaaa was written as a lament that 5 to 7 Arab armies could not defeat the emerging Jewish state that accepted the UN partition when the Arabs did not. The invading army's promised to soak the land of Palestine with the blood of Jews and the army had one gun for every three soldiers and an Air Force consisting of Piper Cubs yet humans and God came together to bring the eternal nation into its third millennium.
Regarding Islam the 7th century barbarian bandit theology this is just a manifestation of it, the Quran says that Israel is a home for the Jews and does not mention Palestine nor is the letter p existence in Arabic further representing the falsity of the phony Palestinians
The religion of peace.com can give you perspective
You forget to tell that these Arab states were still under colonial rule or just came out of million lives costing anti colonial struggles, aremd with just some ww1 level weapons. And the UN partition granted by those still very much colonial minded western WW2 winner countries.
Pointless bloviating blather from a goitard yet again🐖💨
Lawrence of Arabia 🥱
Half a million Muslims fought with shitler 🤹🏿♀️🤷🏿♀️
There was no arms embargo against the Arabs and they were trained and armed by the British but the British were arms embargoing the Jews along with the Americans and everywhere else, fuck you guys are stupid and hasbara means truth and that's why you're triggered like a goitard is cursed to be triggered forever more
Goi'tardery epitomized 😝🤪
The year is 5785 and the land is lush and green because prophecy is being fulfilled with replacement theology being kicked & curb stomped first in 1948 with a full throat reaming in 1967 with territorial restoration fully intact of the land of Israel as God intended it to be for the Jews in perpetuity, the eternal Nation 🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱
31000 flavors of jezeusian delusional mythology still waiting on their failed Messiah👀🤦🏿♀️🤷🏿♀️🤹🏿♀️
Nothing says failed Messiah like needing to return a second time to accomplish what wasn't accomplished the first 🥱🐖💨 it's called the crucifixion because if it was real it would be called the crucifact🎯😮💨🤬🙄🤔
There are 25 fewer Christian countries in the last 100 years lost to Islam, the population in Bethlehem went down from 80% to 6% after the Jews signed the peace treaty with the Arabs under Oslo which resulted in the intifada thus illustrating the futility of negotiating with Arabs but under pressure from the US it happened, sovereignty is the next step.
80% of the trans Jordanian mandate which was the land intended for the Jews was given away unilaterally by the British to the hashemite king from Saudi Arabia to rule over the Arabs, the Palestinians have their Homeland in Jordan.
Seethe more and tithe harder, maybe Jesus will come this Sunday on the wrong Sabbath as you consume his flesh and blood, nothing says Sabbath observance like cannibal Christ on the wrong Sabbath.
Many are acknowledging that Mormons are peak Christianity with the nifty Temple, spiffy uniforms, a rainbow coalition of international followers and they consider the rest of the 31000 flavors of crucifixionists gentiles 😉
Fun fact crucifixionists have a dead Jew hanging in their home or around their neck between their ample bosoms like your adulterous Marjorie Taylor green, a dead Jew hanging on a torture device has become normalized amongst the crucifixionists who eat the dead Jews flesh and blood on the wrong Sabbath... Some Faith you got there 🧟♀️
Sure the brittish trained and armed em for a real war... Against their own colonial occupiers, the brittish?
Nah, any training and arming can only have been to oppress the local mostly not armed population. You would call em kapos equivalent?
Meanwhile Israel got groups of Jews trained and armed by fashist Italy as anticommunist forces, for example.. don't remember why those Italians thought that's a good idea, but hey .. :/
"The 'Palestinian' people do not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity.
In reality, today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a 'Palestinian people', since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism."
Zuheir Mohsen, PLO executive representative, to Dutch newspaper Trouw, 1977
How typical that those like you paint all IDF conscripts with the same brush. When I'm sure you'd object to anyone saying that all Gazans share the evil objectives and behaviours of Hamas members. Hypocrisy is what they call that.
There are no innocent Arabs in Gaza only starving innocent Jews
The derangement of the Islamic deflectionism shared by both Jewish and gentile is remarkable to forever offset the reality of jihad and conquer and caliphate as Hamas represents and as epitomized by the 6000 civilians of all ages and sexes who came over the border to burn murder loot maim humiliate mutilate and kidnap.
The religion of peace.com can give pages of documentation of just the last months jihad attacks around the world, Israel's not turning the other cheek thus therefore won't be participating in the caliphate plan that the rest of the world has coming due to its passivity and Islamic deflectionism
Are they? Are they laughing and cheering, kicking and spitting on mutilated people and corpses? Or was that the Gazans who celebrated as Israeli civilians were kidnapped and brought back to Gaza on 10/7? I'll show you videos of Palestinians reveling (and participating) in the torture of civilians if you show me videos of IDF soldiers laughing while they kill people.
Thanks! Very disturbing, very relevant. And of course, Rabbi Froman must be crying endless tears now. Somehow, we can't lose sight of the possibility of miracles though: a turning, as soon as possible, towards some kind of Fromanian 2-state confederation. The first obstacle to that is of course the current Israeli "leader" and his disgusting team. Let's stay in touch these very tough days. I'm making bit by bit progress in finishing "Froman's Way" - which I dream of being a little jewel of hope......
"I once asked someone I casually know, an ardent Zionist, “what could Israel do that would cause you not to support it?”. He was silent for a moment before looking at me and said, “Nothing.” "
Your question can be interpreted in more than one way. If the question is meant as “what could Israel do that would cause you not to support Israel?", this is not the gotcha you think it is. For many people, such as those who live in Israel or those in the diaspora who, as expected from any one calling themselves a Jew, feel deep solidarity with their fellow Jews everywhere, this is not some theoretical abstraction. This is the life and well being of everyone we hold dear. Of course our love and loyalty to Israel and its people is unconditional! This doesn't mean condoning every action of the state, or agreeing with the current government. To the contrary, I personally would have no problem acknowledging Israel was committing a genocide if there was any serious evidence for this claim (there simply isn't). It wouldn't change my stance in the slightest. Israel is our country, it is under threat by unscrupulous enemies who make no secret of what they would do to us if given the chance, and therefore we should defend it no matter what. If we did wrong we should apologize, not commit national suicide.
Sadly, the phenomenon of the self hating “kapo Jew” is not uncommon throughout Jewish history. Whether through profound ignorance or some deep seated psychological need (ie Stockholm Syndrome) such individuals turn their backs on their own people, land, culture and history. What they never understand until it is too late is that there is no great success in being on the last train to Auschwitz.
The accusation that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza when it is fighting a war of self defense, has killed so few civilians relative to all other urban wars, and when Gaza’s population is rising, is simply a 21st century blood libel and pure antisemitism.
The day Hamas disarms, surrenders and releases all hostages is the day the war ends, as everyone knows full well, and that has been the case since Oct 8. The blood of all dead civilians is on the hands of these savages and their clueless useful idiot supporters in the West.
If only such supposed humanitarians crying crocodile tears cared more for Palestinian lives than they despise Jewish ones….
“Can we understand the growing young Jewish rejection of Zionism in some circles as precisely that sentiment; does “Not in Our Name” mean “This is Not Our Judaism.””
I would call into question whether most of these young Jews have *any* Judaism not just not this (Zionist, militaristic) Judaism. I also question whether they have an alternative Judaism that could ever be in their name and that is anything more than ephemeral.
The Ultra Orthodox Anti-Zionists are clearly (i.e. very visibly) committed to Judaism and Jewish life in the most traditional sense. If Israel were to disappear tomorrow, it would essentially make no difference to them.
Would the same true for the throng of secular anti-Zionist Jews? I recall on X a scene from a pro-Palestine demonstration where Chabadniks were wrapping tefillin on a young “anti-Zionist Jew”. This young man clarified on X that he only agreed to put it on if the Chabad shluchim said “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.” Which of course they did because they only care about a Jew performing a mitzvah. But I found this curious - there is nothing “Zionistic” about putting on tefillin. If Judaism is not Zionism and you can be Jewish without being a Zionist, donning tefillin is a ‘no-brainer.’ It’s totally Jewish-but-not-Zionist. That the young man didn’t want to do it unless he could somehow make it about Palestine is very revealing. Or photos of “anti-Zionist” Jews in a kippa eating at a non-kosher McDonald’s post demonstration. Or JVP members writing Hebrew backwards. Their Judaism seems entirely performative. One gets the impression that if all of Palestine were liberated tomorrow, these people would never again identify themselves as Jewish as it would cease having any cultural cache with their peers once the conflict was over.
The most ardent (non-Haredi) Jewish anti-Zionists seem unable to divorce Judaism from Zionism even as they insist they’re not the same. We know all the Haredi anti-Zionists will marry other Jews and have Jewish children from now till the Messiah arrives. Will the other anti-Zionist Jews do the same?
A key insight of Zionism was that, in the secular age, even putting violent antisemitism to the side, Jews couldn’t survive as a civilization without either retreating to religion and the ghetto, isolating themselves from the developed, scientific world, or establishing a state which would be the locus of Jewish life. Demography is destiny and if most of the people around you are Jews, including the most secular and atheist ones, Jewish civilization and continuity is relatively assured versus the situation in which you are a tiny but well integrated minority.
I have never heard a non-Haredi anti-Zionist Jew put forth any vision of self-perpetuating Jewish life. The Haredi have mitzvot and the self-imposed ghetto. What do the other ones have? Woke-sounding Tikkun Olam?
Israeli nationalism and the war in Gaza has already destroyed or warped Judaism amongst the “modern Orthodox/frum” whom have turned the Land of Israel into a god. They should be grappling with what members of their movement and graduates of their yeshivas have become and are willing to justify. But they are definitely not the ones saying “Not in our name.”
Maybe. I haven’t come across any, but of course, that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Anecdote is not a substitute for real data. I would be very interested if anyone has done a scientific survey which looks at how committedly Jewish non-Haredi anti-Zionist Jews are outside the realm of politics.
And I’d like to understand how this “new, spiritual, just Judaism beyond Zionism” answers the Jews’ demographic problem - namely, outside of Israel, Jews are a tiny, tiny minority. The pulling force of assimilation is almost impossible to avoid. I understand how the ultra religious avoid it. I understand how Israelis avoid it (that’s easy, the Jewish population is the majority). All other streams of Judaism appear to be on a demographic death spiral (I don’t absolve myself - my kid is only half Jewish though being raised Jewish - the chances my grandchildren or great-grandchildren will identify fully as Jews is remote).
Do the mere “thousands” of anti-Zionist Jews have any theory or strategy as to how to guarantee Jewish continuity for future generations?
That might be true. In Roman-occupied Judea, the Zealots, high on god and lacking a realistic assessment of the geopolitical situation, led the Jews to an unmitigated disaster from which Jews will never recover. It was perhaps worse than the Holocaust. Israel’s modern-day zealots may end up driving the third Jewish commonwealth off the same cliff. If that occurs, Judaism and Jews are finished.
But that’s the point I’ve been making. Judaism and Jews cannot survive another millennia without either the nation-state or the ghetto.
The state of Israel has zero legitimacy at this point, it’s past the point of no return. I’m more worried about their victims than Israeli Jews, quite frankly.
I feel the same way about Pakistan. But that’s neither here nor there. My comments were solely about Jewish continuity and how is it even possible absent either intense religiousity or a state with a demographic majority. Nowhere did I make a value judgement that Jewish continuity supersedes or ought to supersede the rights, let alone the lives, of others.
Pathetic Islamic deflectionism blaming the victims for jihad fuck off with your Chelm nudnik logic
There are no innocent Arabs in Gaza
6,000 of them spilled over after breaking the fence dressed in civilian gear in all ages and abilities to kill murder mutilate rape and burn and they're still holding hostages how did you get so retarded with your ironic name as a Jew Jew
Clingy to those who hate people and cringey to those you come from
Shtikdrek nahrshkeit mishigoss from the ignorant self-hating bloviating blowhard
I think the strategy is same as it’s been the last 100 years or so… make new innovative Jewish spaces that really appeal to younger Jews and meet their needs and are welcoming to people holding multiple identities beyond Jewish.
But isn’t that strategy a failure? There are still fewer Jews in the world today than in 1939. Outside of Israel and the Orthodox, growth has been anemic. The core American Jewish population hasn’t budged since 1960 even with 250,000+ immigrants coming from former USSR.
There can’t be Jewish civilization without Jewish continuity and outside the Orthodox and Israeli population, Jews have decided not to reproduce themselves beyond even replacement level.
“and are welcoming to holding multiple identities beyond Jewish”
There comes a point when you have so many identities that each one becomes less and less important. There are millions of Americans with partial Welsh heritage - have you met very many for whom being Welsh meant anything at all? Or Welsh culture was an important part of their lives? Even the more numerous Irish-Americans are far more American than Irish and people in Ireland don’t view them as fellow countrymen. But there’s no risk of the Irish disappearing because they have Ireland.
Both Reform and Conservative Jewish spaces have become increasingly open to intermarried couples and their children - but this doesn’t seem to have made any noticeable difference.
Liberalizing and being more welcoming has been tried and is not working. A decidedly non-Zionist, even anti-Zionist, modern Judaism became popular in Germany. The result was that in the 60 years between German unification and 1933, German Jewry barely grew by 20,000 people and even this was thanks to immigration from the east, not natural growth. Perhaps without Liberal Judaism, more German Jews would’ve just converted to Christianity altogether, so at best, a new, innovative Judaism that appeals to people who are neither Zionist nor especially devout delays the inevitable, not reverses it.
A lot of this demographic decline is just due to Jews being no different than other western, urban populations - rapidly secularizing with dwindling interest in organized religion - we see how empty churches are becoming. The Church can’t seem to stem the tide either. But Christianity can afford to lose millions - Jews can’t - unless we’re fine with being like the Zoroastrians, a people on the verge of extinction and totally irrelevant.
I’d argue such a religion without Zionism would be something new but not Judaism. Judaism from its earliest covenantal foundations defines itself not merely as a set of private spiritual beliefs, but as the collective destiny of a people. In the Abrahamic covenant, God’s promise to Abraham establishes not only personal blessing, but the formation of a nation: “And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great…” (Genesis 12:2), and inseparably, “And I will give to you, and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession…” (Genesis 17:8). At Mount Sinai, Israel receives the Torah not as isolated individuals but as a corporate nation: “And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation” (Exodus 19:6). The Talmud reinforces this peoplehood in Sanhedrin 44a: “A Jew, even though he has sinned, is still a Jew,” affirming inalienable belonging to the Jewish nation.
This concept of peoplehood is inseparable from the centrality of the Land of Israel, which is woven throughout Jewish liturgy and practice. The daily Amidah includes the prayer, “Sound the great shofar for our freedom, and raise a banner to gather our exiles, and gather us together from the four corners of the earth into our land,” alongside the plea, “Return in mercy to Jerusalem Your city… rebuild it speedily in our days.” The Grace After Meals likewise implores God to “have mercy… on Jerusalem Your city, on Zion the dwelling of Your glory, on the kingdom of the house of David… rebuild Jerusalem speedily in our days.” The great festivals reinforce the same theme: the Passover Seder concludes with “Next year in Jerusalem,” and Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the year, ends with the same refrain. These prayers and rituals show that Jewish religious life is continually oriented toward the return to the homeland.
Rabbinic and philosophical voices underscore this same vision. Rabbi Judah HaLevi in the Kuzari (2:24) likens the Land of Israel to the “soul” of the Jewish people, inseparable from their divine mission. Maimonides codifies in his Mishneh Torah (Laws of Kings 11:1) that the Messiah’s role is to “restore the kingdom of David… rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem, and gather the dispersed of Israel,” making restoration to the land a religious goal. The Talmud in Ketubot 110b further declares: “One should always live in the Land of Israel, even in a city inhabited mostly by idolaters, and not live outside the Land, even in a city inhabited mostly by Jews.” In sum, Jewish religion, liturgy, and law consistently affirm that Jewish peoplehood and nationhood are essential categories of faith, and that return to the homeland is not a secondary hope but a central pillar of Jewish practice and belief.
If one were to imagine a religion resembling Judaism in theology, ethics, and ritual, but stripped of the ideas of Jewish peoplehood, nationhood, and the eventual return to the Land of Israel, it would no longer be Judaism but something fundamentally new. Judaism is not solely a personal creed of faith and morality, it is the lived covenant of a people bound together by shared history, collective destiny, and attachment to a homeland promised by God. To remove these elements would unravel the covenantal framework set forth in the Torah and echoed throughout the liturgy, in which Israel is consistently addressed as a nation and exhorted to remember Zion. A Judaism without Zion is a Judaism without Abraham’s covenant, without Sinai’s national revelation, and without the prayers that anchor Jewish life to Jerusalem. Such a faith might retain certain symbols or practices, but it would be a different religion altogether, divorced from the very identity that has sustained the Jewish people across millennia of exile and return.
Zionism that began in the 1880s which turned into statist Zionism. Not the spiritual yearning for Zion or the land itself touch are core to Judaism. I recommend Shaul Magid’s Necessity of Exile.
I am familiar with the book, but I find its arguments both flawed and misguided.
By privileging diaspora existence, Magid diminishes the theological centrality of Israel in Jewish liturgy, prayer, and history. In doing so, he does not merely reinterpret Judaism but distorts it, effectively hollowing out its covenantal core and replacing it with something else entirely, a new religion masquerading as the old.
Political Zionism arose in response to persistent antisemitism and the failures of exile to provide safety or dignity. Without a sovereign state, Jews were perpetually vulnerable. To suggest that exile is preferable undermines the very foundations of Jewish self-determination and security.
The so-called “necessity of exile” is dangerously naive in a world where antisemitism is again on the rise. To elevate exile as an ethical posture of humility or repair is to forget that the absence of sovereignty cost millions of Jewish lives. An ethic of powerlessness is simply untenable in a hostile modern world. The atrocities of October 7 and the subsequent surge in global antisemitism confirm why Israel remains indispensable as a refuge. In this context, the call to exile as a guiding framework seems especially out of touch and even reckless in the face of renewed existential threats.
Ethical responsibility does not require political powerlessness. Jewish sovereignty in Israel has enabled humanitarian contributions, cultural revival, and self-defense. While nationalism carries undeniable risks, sovereignty ensures survival. To prefer the ethic of exile over the responsibilities of statehood may be intellectually attractive to some, but it ignores the very real dangers Jews face without a homeland.
A purely exilic identity may stimulate thought, but it is ultimately hollow and wholly inadequate for sustaining Jewish flourishing in the twenty-first century. Where exile resigns itself to decline, Jewish sovereignty opens the path to enduring life and flourishing.
Thanks for this very interesting and subtle post. The point that nationalism when mixed with religion is often a form of idolatry is equally valid for non-Jews.
"Gaza may have started as a war, but it is no longer a war, it is the destruction of an entire society."
I won't be cute and ask you to "define society" - let's agree that this is the case. Yes, Israel is trying to destroy Gaza.
Using "Gaza" as a synecdoche of the whole, which includes Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and the dozen or so other militant organizations that are present in the place - has said it wants to destroy Israel. It has stated this objective this clearly, openly, and repeatedly.
Why shouldn't you destroy them?
Honest question. Why should Israel not destroy an entity that has clearly stated its intention to destroy it?
Honest counter-question: how do you destroy these entities? Does it involve killing every last member? Their wives and parents and sisters and children? Does it involve reeducation camps? If Israel *should* destroy Gaza as synecdoche of the militant groups, what do you think this would this look like?
Why not offer the Gazans the opportunity to leave and make a better life for themselves somewhere else? They are penned up in Gaza and not allowed to flee at the moment. Unlike every other war ever.
And whatever unique elements their culture has can be replicated elsewhere. Though I have yet to learn what those are. Even the genocidal Jew- hatred is not particularly unique to them.
For those who do not wish to leave, they would need to swear peace with Israel as a Jewish state or be kicked out. And leadership would need to publicly state they condemn October 7, that the Nakba was caused by the failure of Arab nations to win a war of annihilation and not a Jew-initiated ethnic cleansing or theft of land from "rightful owners" (i.e. renounce the "Nakba libel"), and provide proof that they are not teaching their kids jihad and jew- hatred in order to receive aid to rebuild. If nobody is willing to do this then they can be forced to relocate -- perhaps they can switch places with the Syrian Druze for instance, who are very motivated to live in peace with Israel. Gaza could be a Druze statelet that could one day declare independence.
Would this be ethnic cleansing? Not really - Israeli Arabs have the same ethnicity as Gazans. So do most Jordanians and Egyptians. It would be a forcible transfer of those who are not willing to leave. Just like the many that happened in the wake of the 2nd World War.
Do we care about how things can be made to sound or about what is best for actual humans, achieving a workable outcome where there can be peace and no more killing in the future? Living side by side with a population indoctrinated to attempt to murder and erase your entire society does not work.
Was the denazification of Germany a genocide of Nazi culture?
Your first two paragraphs are naive. The only countries willing to take Palestinians are Libya (in the midst of a civil war of its own), Ethiopia (prone to droughts, famines, and vicious regimes), and Indonesia (a Muslim country but not an Arabic-speaking one and located far, far away). Imagine yourself having to choose one as your next forever home.
As for the beginning of your third: "wear peace... or be kicked out." If those are your choices, how many would commit perjury? I could go on and quibble with your response, but, frankly, it's tedious.
What you seem to be leaving out is the fundamental Jewish concept that every human being is created 'betselem elokim' and therefore Palestinians must have human rights, civil rights, bodily autonomy, and every other right you take for granted. This is something that our government completely ignores, preferring to label all of Hamas (and Gaza, because, as I'm told over and over again, there are no innocent bystanders there) Amalek. The 'tselem elokim' truth must coexist with the truth that the Jewish people has a right to a homeland in some part of the land called 'erets yisrael' in our ancient texts. Every decision and plan for the future must acknowledge both. Any decision or plan that leaves one or the other out is irresponsible.
Well, how has the current situation been working out? Is it humane for Palestinians to be indoctrinated into a death cult and shot into compliance by Hamas? Maybe trying something new would be better. Also there are consequences for people when their leaders start wars and lose.
And if the swearing of peace is a lie then that's better than not swearing peace at all, and then there can be safeguards in place to guarantee compliance in order to receive support. Or immediate deportation if you break it.
How are Palestinian human rights doing under Hamas and in the middle of the war? My family moved around the world multiple times to seek our human rights and I'm glad they did, so I'm not denying the humanity of Gazans in suggesting a move could be better - and maybe with some creativity, better options than the ones you suggest could be found. Because unfortunately there has not yet been a Gazan leadership who was capable of creating a situation in which human rights could be realized. That's very sad but Israel cannot achieve human rights for them.
What solution do you see for Gazans to be able to exercise human rights?
They don't leave because Hamas and Egypt will not let them. Syrians and Ukrainians get to leave war zones but Gazans do not. It is inhumane - their lives are worth nothing but a photo op to those who profess to support them.
I am saying that if we keep doing the same thing, we will only continue having endless war which is a bad situation for everyone but Hamas. So we should do something different as I suggested. Because what other option gets Gazans into a better situation as individuals? And Israelis too - everyone benefits if Gazans are allowed to emigrate. As far as Gazan peoplehood, if they want that, a functional identity is easier to achieve when they are off the public dole and can accept they are not taking back all of Israel. Israel cannot keep resetting the playing board. That is actually cruel to everyone involved. Because the same awful pattern will just play out again.
Honestly, who would qualify as an objective observer at this point? Most aid organizations and newspapers appear to be deeply compromised by a combination of extreme leftism and manipulation by Hamas that they do not disclose and also the financial rewards to aid organizations that the Gazan victimhood narrative sustains. The reality distortion field of antisemitism appears to permeate journalism and NGOs. The new aid foundation in Gaza appears to be a welcome exception.
John Spencer and Douglas Murray seem to be providing reasonable fact- based assessments - do you disagree?
Who would you like to see allowed into Gaza who is not allowed in currently? And who would guarantee the safety of those allowed in?
Let me rephrase. It wasn't so much a counter-question as it was a request for clarification of what the OP meant when she wrote, "Why should Israel not destroy an entity that has clearly stated its intention to destroy it?"
The original question posed a clear moral dilemma: if an entity openly declares its intent to destroy you—and not just once, but over time, and then acts on that intent—why shouldn't you destroy it?
That’s the ethical dilemma on the table.
If you can’t or won’t engage with that directly, just say so.
If your position is ‘No, it’s never justified under any circumstances,’ fine. But stop with the bad-faith deflections.
The counter already implicitly includes the answer to the question posed. “Why should Israel not?” — it might require indeed perpetrating a genocide, and surely there are undoubtedly good reasons not to do so?
I would urge you to consider the possibility that to judge a morally complex situation such as war in an urban setting, "expertise" in genocide, whatever that means, is useless without expertise in warfare. Has the distinguished professor Bartov seriously put himself in the shoes of those responsible for the life and well being of the people of Israel? Has he weighed all the options and has he come up with a militarily and politically sound method of dealing with Hamas in which a lot fewer Palestinian civilians are dead, but at the same time Hamas doesn't come out of this unscathed and ready to carry out additional attacks? If professor Bartov has done this in a serious way, I would like to learn what his reasoning is. I suspect Professor Bartov either hasn't bothered or makes some fanciful assumptions about the efficacy of appeasement or about the existence of some as unspecified method of tunnel warfare where the civilian population, openly used as camouflage, stays unhurt without being removing from the site of battle. This kind of self indulgence doesn't make him or you morally superior.
This is so maddening! R’ Magid, The Necessity of Exile was useful if not vital two years ago, but now here we are. WHAT JEWS FEEL AND THE ‘FUTURE OF JUDAISM’ ARE NOT IMPORTANT TODAY. Either Israelis are tens of thousands of murders deep into Genocide by ordinance or they are not (they are). Accordingly, the only relevant question is how to stop them and reverse any of their viciousness that can still be undone. Was the primary question in the final months of the Shoah, what taint a campaign of domination and extermination might leave on storied German philosophical traditions? Should the tail end of the confederacy have privileged voices concerned with rescuing the legacy of enslaver culture? How are this note, the arguments of Klein and Harari, and the recent frothy appeal of Mandy Patinkin not examples of the obsessive, solipsistic self-absorption that brought us to this day? That Israeli supremacists and their external enablers have likely destroyed Judaism for most of us as well can be added to their list of wrongdoings but is far secondary.
Would the destruction of the confederacy slaver tradition have found itself on a list of “wrongdoing” or the list of “fortunate side effects”? It would be no different for Judaism.
A lot of anti Zionist Jews seem to have severe amnesia about the traditional mythological glorification of genocidal conquest and slavery in the Torah. Anti Zionist Jews devoted to Judaism are like anti-racist Americans who revere the Confederacy.
Have you read it? If not, you shouldn’t be defending it.
Numbers 31
“The Lord said to Moses, “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.””
Numbers 31:15
“Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.”
Don’t gaslight on behalf of the abomination that is the Torah. It’s worse than Mein Kampf.
I stand by my words. There are many things in Torah and many of them are hard. But the book itself doesn't advise those things as the correct path to take in life. I can't speak to the comparison you make because I haven't read Mein Kampf. I have read Torah and it is the reason I object to the entire zionist enterprise.
It was the correct path to take for Moses and his thugs. The Torah claims to promise Palestine to Israel forever. And it commands the genocide of the Canaanites to acquire it. Jews have throughout history, including its earliest history, used that as justification to wage war in order to conquer Palestine. The book doesn't just "advise" slavery, it *commands* it at times, and it *sanctifies* at other times. It *commands* the murder of homsexuals. It commands a lot of atrocious things, which is even more than simple "advice.". Well, if you ever come across to reading Mein Kampf you will discover it never commands genocide explicitly like the Torah does. And if you ever read other religious texts, such as the Tao Te Ching, you will discover that it doesn't either. The Torah isn't an inkblot, and it has historically shown itself to be the cultural foundation of a genocidal slaver cult that is carrying out a genocide today. Standing by a book that commands one of the characters the cult reveres the most to enslave female virgins indeed must be hard. It's something I won't do. It's something no one should do. It's honorable to denounce it, especially while it is the foundation of an ongoing genocide.
I think this was simply another anti-Israel hit piece from a token Jew-token Israeli. You slipped in the word atrocities (plural!). Name ONE atrocity that Israel has committed in the Gaza. (I can name you 1200 that Hamas committed in Israel). This was a disgusting piece.
It's bad whatever it is. The fact that the genocide claim has been lobbed at Israel since at least the eighties AND on Oct 7 (literally) makes me highly skeptical of the use of that term.
Well I only started to use it after Israel’s response to Oct 7th when it became clear that is what was happening. Don’t really care about how other people used it in the past and is logically irrelevant.
Professor, is there anything Israel can do that would lead you to support it? I don't think so. People like you, Beinart, Kristoff, Chapelle.... just don't want Israel to be.
As for Bartov, the appeal of celebrity in the Western press has probably prevented rational, analytical thoughts from being processed in his brain. The circumstances and intent in Europe during WWII and Gaza are so vastly different that to put them in one "genocide" bucket is preposterous and deranged.
Magus, your readers are sycophants; they kiss your ass and rell you what a great scholar you are. Not me. Your main thesis contains not even the attempt at proof. There are no atrocities being committed by the IDF in the Gaza, nor genocide. Your article is bullshit.
This entire debate is flawed. Whatever Bartov’s motive may be, he does little beyond repeating the case that South Africa has presented before the ICJ - including the same distortions and misrepresentations of comments by Israeli officials - that South Africa itself has lost faith in. Why else has it now argued that the Court should depart from several decades of case law and suddenly expanded the legal definition of the crime itself. In so doing, South Africa is following in the footsteps of both Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch who, quite surreptitiously, redefined the term “genocide” before then finding Israel guilty under their new and broader definition. This is not an intellectually serious approach.
The facts on the ground don’t sustain any claim of genocide as understood in the international convention and the caselaw. The Hamas generated casualty numbers have been disputed by statisticians so much that in the numbers more recent iteration, it turns out that some 70% are men of combat age. Also, the latest demographic numbers support that state of affairs. There is no random distribution of death among Gazans, something that would be expected were Israeli targeting to be indiscriminate.
And, of course, were genocide the objective, it’s hard to understand why Israel would so far sacrifice nearly 900 soldiers while helping feed the population rather than flattening Gaza through aerial and artillery bombardements. After all, it was Egypt with the support of most of the world community that sealed its border and prevented Gazans from seeking refuge - unlike the experience of Ukrainians fleeing Russia’s invasion that had a clear ethnic cleansing angle to it.
Every Western military expert who has examined IDF tactics up close find a model to learn from if not emulate. For them, the claim of genocide is laughable as a factual matter and unsustainable under the Laws of Armed Conflict.
And notwithstanding his mandatory stint in the IDF, Bartov seems to know nothing at all about IDF targeting choices and the many levels of review (including legal) before approval is given. Indeed, all he is really doing is telling Hamas and every future terror army that their tactic of embedding within the civilian infrastructure and willfully sacrificing civilians is a winning strategy against Western democracies.
Of course, Hamas as a fighting force or its strategy doesn’t appear in his analysis. It’s almost as if it’s the IDF versus unarmed Gazans which self-evidently is not what happening. But this cherry-picking and faulty framing ultimately undermines Bartov’s analysis. It could be said that the Nazis fought two wars simultaneously, the one against the Allied forces and one against the Jews of Europe. In fact, the latter seemed to have been the priority toward war’s end. Nothing remotely similar can be said of Israel’s response to October 7. Its fight is with Hamas and the latter’s decision to fight among, behind and under its civilians while eschewing uniforms (all war crimes) creates the scenario for civilian casualties - which, even now, are at an historically low civilian to combatant ratio - another proof of no genocide.
What we do have is a “genocide” for those who like to use scare quotes to denote something other than the real thing. Yet the impact of the false allegation reverberates throughout the world, bringing on the foreseeable consequences of scattering such seeds on a fertile bed of lightly slumbering antisemitism. How else to explain attacks on non-Israeli Jews, their places of worship and their places of business?
But to say there is only a “war” now going on in Gaza approaches a willful blindness to the facts and context of Hamas breaking the permanent ceasefire in place the morning of October 7.
We now know from Hamas documents that the invasion was supposed to be part of a multi-front attack on Israel. The coordination seems to have failed for a variety of reasons, among which seems to be Iran’s decision to preserve Hezbollah as its shield for its nuclear aspirations rather than a sword to assist Hamas.
While many pretend to support Israel’s right to defend itself, October 7 has changed the calculus. Now the threat itself must be eliminated and in Gaza that means Hamas must be destroyed the way the Nazis were in Germany.
Perhaps the more interesting question is one only Bartov can know: why the desire to lower the standards of the internationally recognized crime of genocide, thereby undermining his own specialty.
And his protest to the contrary in his recent op-ed in The NY Times notwithstanding, the charge of genocide is not one he reached after long thought and painful reflection. It was one he first intimated only a few weeks after Hamas orgy of violence on October 7, 2023.
Along with not being a lawyer, you are evidently not an expert in military matters nor particularly well informed on the situation on the ground.
The reason the war against Hamas continued are multifarious and complex. First, Egypt has locked the Gazan civilians in place, and it is the IDF that must move them as best it can out of harm’s way in the face of false claims of illegal forced transfers and Hamas resistance. By having allowed, at US insistence, food and supplies to enter via UNRWA and other NGOs, Hamas has been able to feed its members and keep paying them by selling excess aid - which is supposed to be free - to the rest of the population.
The war continues because Hamas created a very complicated battlefield over the past two decades unlike any known previously. As a consequence, its tactics have continued to shift to meet the moment. Over 20,000 Hamas members are believed by the IDF to be dead, thousands more are incapacitated with wounds and a certain number have deserted. The new recruits seem to average 16 years old and, obviously, are inexperienced.
As to your belief in “self-driving armoured cars and other forms of technology”, you cannot deploy what doesn’t exist and, in an event, those tunnels large enough to accommodate vehicles are believed to have been taken out. Since the vast majority of tunnels are accessed by ladders, vehicles are not appropriate. This is war not a video game, after all.
As for videos, isn’t it curious that there is not a one of IDF troops shooting and killing Gazans coming to food distribution points? Of course, zero real videos of famine have emerged over the months. So that negative should inform observers of what is actually happening rather than the malevolent PR advanced by interested parties.
As for war crimes, Israel has some 100 cases under investigation, so we will have to wait. As for genocide, there simply isn’t one outside the political abuse of the term. If Israel sought to destroy the Gazans, it would have been accomplished in weeks - especially with Egypt keeping them in place and Hamas ensuring they were exposed.
I’ll take a guess that you don’t read Hebrew and are relying on limited sources of information, but the overwhelming number of statements South Africa has relied on are taken so far out of context that where it claims the object was Gazans, it’s pretty evident the object was Hamas. And months ago, it requested the ICJ redefine the crime - an unprecedented request in criminal law where you receive notice of a crime before the act is committed and not after.
Finally, the war and suffering ends when Hamas surrenders, releases all hostages (living and dead) and leaves Gaza so that its residents may have a chance for a better future. That none of the anti-Zionist crowd call for this illustrates a sad fact. They are weaponizing Palestinian suffering for political purposes and care not a whit for any flesh and blood Palestinians.
One major impediment is Hamas’ expectation that outside support would ensure its survival by forcing Israel - not it - to back down. It is the West’s good fortune that Israel is standing strong. The threat is existential for Israel, even if not yet for the West though, absent Israel, its time would arrive soon enough. Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood, Iran and jihadis have made their goal of imposing Islam on the entire world clear enough. We might think it a risible fantasy, but so did the Byzantines and Persians.
You clearly accept the Israeli government argument even when they don't provide proof. How do Hamas steal the food? Do they have their own drivers and trucks , and warehouses? How do they sell it, do they have market stalls, and shops? Where do starving people with little opportunity to work get the money and which currency is it? Even after the Israeli hostages are released the Israel wont end the war. This is clearly a war against Palestinians as a people not just against Hamas. Thank god the outside world is now seeing what is happeneing and applying pressure against Israel. Israel are the 21st century barbarians. This is an existential threat against Israel, this is no threat against Western countries.
I’ve seen various iterations of your comment, why doesn’t the IDF allow journalists into Gaza to see what’s going on. Of course, they do as part of embedding procedures common in every Western military. But the issue seems to be, on the one hand, to allow journalists to roam freely in a war zone while, on the other hand, the IDF also protects them from harm. This would not only be unprecedented in warfare but needlessly expose reporters and soldiers to entirely avoidable risk.
To ask for such a thing is as deeply unserious as the underlying assumption that Hamas would allow such international journalists to work independently and report anything contrary to the narrative imposed on all the “stringers” that the credulous media already relies on.
People like Piers Morgan go as far to suggest that Israel’s refusal to allow in journalists unsupervised stems from the need to cover up even worse crimes. What makes this argument so risible is the idea that Hamas has somehow missed a trick in blackening Israel’s public image and only some intrepid journalist will expose it.
As to doctor’s reports, hearsay rules for medical evidence provide an important insight to your claim of IDF shooting kids. The doctors are not witnesses to anything and so are not in a position to determine who shot or any other fact about the incident. Even the type of bullet removed is inconclusive given the evidence of Hamas using IDF rifles and munitions. All these doctors are recycling is a Hamas approved narrative. It should be obvious that their very residency in Gaza is entirely reliant on not getting crosswise of Hamas.
I am happy to read your agreement that the years long claim by the UN and various NGOs of famine, intense malnutrition and the like were false - as all the contemporaneous evidence showed. But there is still no famine as such going on now.
The timing of these stories is always revealing. It is no coincidence that whenever Hamas is on the back foot at the negotiating table such heart tugging stories magically appear. There is never any compelling photographic evidence to support such claims - any more than there are for GHF centers being killing fields - and all this in a population where everyone seems to have a cellphone.
And as far as the hospitals in Gaza are concerned, in spite of repeated reports of a devastated hospital system, it is not only up and running but the ones to which victims are filmed being rushed appear undamaged and fully functional.
What is remarkable, then, is the degree to which true ideologues can compartmentalize facts to avoid the inevitable cognitive dissonance that emerges when the new narrative conflicts and often undermines the earlier received wisdom in an information environment where both narratives need to be maintained.
Edith Bruck, a Holocaust survivor returned to her Hungarian village some decades after the war and was asked , "Is the story about the death camps real?" Difficult to believe that there are people who dont believe what happened. They did not have it shown to them every day, but you are shown the horrors of Gaza every day and you don't believe there is a famine. Just like today there are Holocause deniers, in ten years time people like you will be referred to as Gaza famine deniers. How do you sleep at night?
It’s very hard to take anything you say seriously. Your claims are flatly contradicted by the evidence and your defense of the Hamas vetted foreign doctors allowed into Gaza as apolitical is beyond naive. None is a first hand witness to how any of their patients were injured, only that they were. That they are told what happened is hearsay; that Hamas has a clear narrative it wants to sell through these aid workers is self-evident.
But it is your final comment which lets the cat out of the bag and is quite appealing. How you can use what is happening in Gaza as a species of Holocaust denial is beyond the pale but sadly entirely predictable. The Holocaust and its unique connection to the Jewish people have been targets for decades of the anti-Zionists and antisemites. To pretend that those who deny the well documented historical event of Hitler’s final solution to the Jewish question are in any way comparable to those who question the gross politicization of what is happening in Gaza is to display a moral vacuum. Charges of genocide were flung at Israel even before the IDF began operations in Gaza, the charge of famine was first made almost as long ago. Neither charge against Israel survives any dispassionate factual inquiry.
Simply put, there is no equivalence between the fact of the Holocaust and the political fictions of genocide and famine in Gaza. The only certainty is that, as we can all see, people will claim such an equivalence not necessarily because you believe there to be any but in the malicious pursuit of the goal of diminishing and trivializing the Holocaust.
To be charitable, you may be doing this unwittingly but the result is the same. It’s a truly shameful exercise in which you’ve engaged, but at least now everyone can see your argument for what it is and draw the appropriate conclusion.
The Holocaust was a catastrophic disaster for humanity and it happened to European Jews because they were Jews. People say "never again" yet similar but not exactly the same things have happened to other peoples since then, the Srebenica massacre, the Rwanda massacre and what is happening in Sudan, and now the Gaza massacre. Each of these events are disasters for humanity but are not equivalent. They are similar in that many innocent people die in a cruel way, and in all cases the people doing the killing lie about their motives.
Some Israelis accept their government is committing war crimes: ex-Israeli army chief Moshe Ya’alon, said recently that Israel “sends soldiers to commit war crimes in Gaza,” and former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, a few weeks ago claimed that Israel is “no longer fighting against Hamas” and stated it has weaponized starvation in Gaza, and is committing war crimes. The organizations B'TSelem and Breaking the Silence state clearly that Israel is involved in human rights violations. Some Israelis are menschen, but some 47% of Israelis according to Haaretz believe what the army is doing in Gaza is right.
It took the Germans more than 40 hyears before people asked of their parents or grandparents, "What did you do in the war?" Maybe it will take 40 years for the Israelis as a people to accept that what is happening today in Gaza does not fit with Jewish values.
" their very residency in Gaza is entirely reliant on not getting crosswise of Hamas. " You expect me to believe that a surgeon who has left Gaza would still be susceptible to Hamas pressure and would not tell the truth of what he has seen and knows. International journalists show us what is happening in Ukraine, Sudan and other war zones, but not in Russia and Gaza, because their governments have something to hide; neither the Russian or Israeli government cares for the lives of journalists, they have killed them before when they got too close to the truth. The only embedding procedures in Gaza I have seen have been in the tunnels and captured hospitals and no journalist, as far as I can recall has actually been present during fighting. The doctors admit they don't know where or who shot the individual they are treating, but they do notice patterns showing a remarkable accuracy indicating highly trained sharpshooters are involved.
There is much compelling photographic evidence if you look for it, France 24, Sky News, BBC, CNN, ABC TRT World, Al-Jazeera, Times of India and others, even the NYT which generally supports the Israeli government.
You still have not answered my other questions: How do Hamas steal the food? Do they have their own drivers and trucks , and warehouses? How do they sell it, do they have market stalls, and shops? Where do starving people with little opportunity to work get the money and which currency is it? Why are doctors not allowed to take baby food let alone bandages into Gaza? Where are the links to Gaza restaurants? Why don't Israeli military doctors work in Gaza hospitals?
I dont expect you to have a Damascene moment, just a little honesty about the decency of the Israeli military, you know, maybe express a Jewish value or two.
You naïveté is touching, your gullibility much less so. I understand your need to believe a false narrative into which he seem to have poured a part of your identity. I’ve mentioned the videos about Hamas, how it operates and how it maintains control over food distribution - until at least the GHF came on the scene. Of course, if you were right and Hamas is diverting nothing, then all of the U.N. and NGOs are intentionally supplying Hamas directly - which would be even worse. Remember how well fed the Hamas terrorists appeared at the notorious staged hostage transfer episodes. So you really need to choose among narratives.
As for the anti-Zionist doctors on whom you rely, they have long ago chosen their allegiance. Do you really imagine that Hamas would allow any independent minded individuals (whether doctors or journalists) into Gaza.
A little sekhel sees to be in order in your end. Whether you are up to the challenge remains to be seen.
You seem to believe this discussion is about Hamas. It isn't. Hamas is a terrorist organisation. I believe you think it is as well as many governments. It is a terrorist organisation. Terrorist organisations kill civilians indiscriminately without trial. This discussion is about the Israeli government. Are they a terrorist organisation? That is the question. Are they killing civilians without trial? The evidence is yes. You have now decided that if somebody provides evidence that the Israeli military kills civilians then they are anti-zionist (I am sure you consider me an anti-zionist, and on that you are correct). I have no idea if those doctors are or are not anti-zionist, their politics is irrelevant, they simply described what they saw in the Gazan hospitals. Some of them have been in other war zones before they went to Gaza, such as Iraq, Nigeria, Croatia and others, they are not scared of terrorist situations (I am). That is what they do, they want to save lives, even when surrounded by thugs, they are not interested in the politics of the situation. That is why they are describing what they see in Gaza as a war against children and civilians. I do not deny that Hamas operatives may steal food for themselves, they are a terrorist organisation, we all agree on that, although nobody in Gaza looks fat, so even if Hamas is stealing food they are not gorging on it. I dont understand what you are saying about the UN and NGO's. Surely you are not suggesting Hamas operates border check points, and they can stop doctors and jouranlists from entering. The Israeli military are the border control agents. The Israelis decide who enters and leaves Gaza. You still have not answered any of my questions, nor given me any links to Hamas videos operating food distribution points, nor told me how much Hamas sells aid for. By the way Tripadvisor and ChatGPT agree there are no operating restaurants or hotels in Gaza.
The evidence is there for everyone to see, if they wish to. Let’s start with the obvious. The aid provided through UNRWA and assorted NGOs was supposed to be distributed for free. So where did that free aid wind up? Why is the aid being resold at high prices?
Quite obviously it was being diverted and Hamas is one, even if not the exclusive, answer. Under the Laws of Armed Conflict, Israel is not legally obligated to provide aid to an enemy civilian population where there’s a reasonable fear of diversion to the enemy combatants. Here, that fear is fact. So Israel is going beyond its legal obligations in this respect.
Even the recent NY Times attempt to downplay Hamas’ stealing and reselling of aid (all based on an uncorroborated anonymous source, something the paper would be unlikely to publish in any other context) only went as far as to say the theft, though occurring, was not “systemic”.
And to ask how trucks are hijacked and the aid stolen and kept - in the face of videos and, frankly, common sense understanding of how criminals operate - is to indulge in the disingenuous practice of “just asking questions”.
Maybe you should check out Imshin’s online, date-stamped record of food being sold and of restaurants open in Gaza. That might help you understand why there are no Sudan-like pictures of famine coming from Gaza and why children with terrible genetic or other conditions are paraded as victims of starvation- alongside their apparently healthy and well-fed parents and siblings. Or just take a look at any video from Gaza, even those heading to a GHF distribution center, famine is not evident.
And a final observation is necessary. Hamas has publicly stated, via Sinwar and others, that hundreds of thousands of dead Gazans is a price worth paying for “victory”. It has also declared that the wellbeing of Gazans is not its affair or responsibility.
So what to make of its demand that food distribution be done exclusively through UNRWA et al.? Has Hamas suddenly changed its stripes and now cares about the average Gazan or is it because it benefited from the old way of doing things?
In other words, a little critical thought would show the cognitive dissonance with which you are many others should struggling. But when the evidence is at odds with your preconceptions, it may be time to reevaluate the latter.
One has to ask, why does not the Israeli government allow international journalists into Gaza? International journalists would confirmor deny what you have said.
Many British, Scandinavian and American surgeons who have been working in Gazan hospitals are very clear that the children they have seen were shot by Israeli bullets, and most of those children do not have genetic issues. And they are willing to swear in front of a court of law what they have seen. Prior to Israel stopping trucks entering Gaza there was not the starvation that is seen today, so one can assume that stopping the trucks enter and refusing UNWRA doing its work are the causes of the starvation.
I have asked you for the evidence that the food is being diverted, yet you and the Israeli government provide none. Those doctors say now when they enter Gaza they are not allowed to take into the country baby food let alone bandages. Give me a link to Gaza restaurants. You will note that those running to a GHF distribution center,are the ones who are still strong enough to do that even though they appear very thin.
You say under the Laws of Armed Conflict, Israel is not legally obligated to provide aid to an enemy civilian population, except when an army takes over a hospital it is expected to keep it running for the civilian population. In addition Jewish values require that children should not be punished because of what their parents did.
I sincerely hope you and your ilk carry forward the mark of cain, branded deep in your souls.
You say IDF tactics are a model to learn from for Eestern militaries. In Octotber 2023 Hamas had some 30,000 men in arms and Israel had hundreds of thousands of soldiers and many in reserve and cutting edge technology at its disposal yet 20 months later the war continues. Incredibly the IDF still claim Hamas uses tunnels. Surely after 20 months, with drones, self-driving armoured cars and other forms of technology if they were a competent army they would have destroyed the tunnel system.
Israel does not allow international journalists into Gaza for the two simple reasons; they would see the lack of discipline amongst Israeli soldiers (I believe a 19 or 20 year old can be a sergent whereas in European armies they are three or four years older), the indiscriminate killing by the IDF, and the targeting of children. The facts on the ground do show that genocide is being committed. Others have cogently argued that the war is the only thing that keeps Netanyahu in power.
I am not a lawyer, but my reading of the case before the ICJ does not fit with your statements.
Thank you for this more intellectually honest analysis than the original one.
Wait a second, doesn’t Iran present itself as one of the greatest defenders and supporters of Palestine? How can that possibly be true if, as you claim, it will use enriched dirty bombs to make Israel uninhabitable for centuries? Are these bombs to be targeted only at Jews while sparing the Muslims?
These questions expose the inherent hypocrisy (not to say outright delusions) of the pro-Iran contingent.
As your comment suggests an alternate universe, one that redefines the meaning of a Pyrrhic victory to include a humiliating defeat (at least King Pyrrhus won his battle even if at a terrible cost), you would appear well qualified to answer these hypothetical questions.
Do you have a source for "enriched dirty bombs"?
Did you not read the original post? I was responding to the poster’s hypothetical, hence the phrase “as you claim”. The possibility of such a bomb has we bruited by others - even as it exposes the hollowness of the longstanding argument that Iran’s massive nuclear program, much of which is either underground or at places Iran has declared off-limits to IAEA inspection, is solely for peaceful purposes.
On that point you are right, I apologise
No he isn't. You were right asking for a source because that was just speulation of one person what could be done. And any talk of an Israeli about another countries nuclear program is irrelevant considering they killed 2 Kennedies to get and keep their nuclear weapons program and threaten to blow up western cities with it. Iran's nuclear weapons program evidently was just peaceful purpose until it got attacked so much and bombed directly by Israel and the us. Now... Now one has to assume they got multipple working nukes.
Listen to Ted postal about it for reasoning
Fortunately, Iran doesn't even need nuclear warheads to end Israel. It was clearly demonstrated that Iran can paste tiny, Israel with hypersonic missiles from end to end, with impunity...next time, those hypersonics may carry highly enriched "dirty bomb" warheads that will render Israel uninhabitable for centuries.
Conduct yourselves accordingly 🤷♂️
A criminal warned is a criminal whose self destruction we can watch with equanimity.
Although: beware, beware. Israel is cutting deals with friendly or subverted (whichever) nations. They have already arranged for inswarming Israelis to steal Argentinians' pensions. To arms to arms, lock your treasuries, people of the world. This is how they govern themselves when they realize they're in danger where they are, and might not enjoy being there so much anymore.
That’s a whole lot of words (peppered fully with outright lies) to explain that Jews CANNOT commit genocide because they are Jewish, and whatever Jews do is in God’s name.
We share a faith tradition, Charles. So far, I have watched as Israel has broken every one of the Ten Commandments. Taking the Lord’s name is vain being chief among them. The time will come when each and every person cheering this will turn and look upon what you have wrought and turn into a pillar of salt.
I usually refrain from dealing with people who both deploy strawmen rather than argument and have reading comprehension issues.
For you to conclude that anyone is “cheering” what is happening in Gaza suggests you are guilty of both. That you seem incapable of distinguishing reality from Hamas spoon-fed propaganda suggests, at this point, a willful lack of discernment bordering on credulousness.
If you wish to engage in a discussion, try addressing the merits of the species of the arguments advanced. Everyone is on to the general dismissal strategy to cover intellectual impoverishment.
There aren’t any merits to your argument. We don’t need “Hamas Propaganda” to see that the State of Israel is committing mass murder, calling it religion, and starving children to death- gleefully. All one needs is to listen to the Israeli leadership in their own words.
And now, I will disengage because I dont spend time with evil people.
All of your words above may have been responsive to Bartov but it entirely misses the point of Magid's article. You seem to have missed the concluding sentence:
"The cliff, however, may not be the fate of the state. The state, as Harari argues correctly in my view, will survive. Rather, the cliff is a 2000-year-old wisdom tradition called Judaism."
Magid is not arguing Bartov's case with regard to genocide although he is pointing out that there is a difference between saying Israel is not committing genocide in Gaza and Israel CANNOT commit genocide because of history. What Magid IS arguing is that Judaism itself is burning because of what is happening in Gaza, whatever you want to call it, is an egregious violation of Jewish religious values. Israel as a state will survive and it will be a state the majority of residents are jews at least ethnically. But I personally don't think you can call it a Jewish state in the sense that I have always used that term ever again. I am with Magid on his assessment of the damage being done to Judaism itself.
First, I was addressing Bartov’s argument. Second, neither you nor I nor anyone else not directly involved knows what is happening in Gaza. So to pretend that what the IDF may be doing is a reach. As I pointed out earlier, every Western military officer or expert who has spent time in Gaza and with the IDF conclude that it has acquitted itself remarkably well and has been pathbreaking in its battle against Hamas. Unfortunately, Israel is losing the propaganda war - but that was a war, as Hamas always knew, was rigged against it.
As for Jewish values, the primary one is safeguarding the Jewish people. For Magid or anyone else to pretend to pass judgment on whether Israel is living up to some vague and ill defined “Jewish values” is beyond arrogant.
What is seemingly motivating Magid and Bartov, among other things, is a deep seated antipathy to Netanyahu and frustration at the collapse of the Left in Israel. These emotions find their expression in a desire to exploit this war for a partisan end: ending Netanyahu’s career. It’s one thing to engage in such politicking on internal issues, it’s another matter and far different in its consequences to do so in the middle of a war where they must be aware that their critique will be weaponized against not only the state of Israel but, as we’ve seen in far too many occasions, against Jews worldwide.
If Magid and Bartov put forward reasonable alternatives to the prosecution of the war that would be one thing. But accepting Hamas’ narrative and basing a strange critique that offers no plan speaks to a different, not to say, troubling agenda.
I am Jewish and the 613 commandments in Torah do not include protecting the Jewish people above all else. Indeed the general argument that has been made for centuries is that the Torah protects the Jewish people. I don't think you understand how to discuss theology which is a separate issue from whatever it is you are talking about. To some of us the Jewish RELIGION is also important. Lets concede that the conduct of the war is necessary and follows approved rules of engagement and Israel could have done nothing to protect Palestinian civilians that would not have endangered Israel's existence. That does not mitigate the consequences Magid points out with his concluding sentence.
There is a book you might read called Constantines Sword which is about the consequences for Catholicism of its centuries of persecution. The author James Carrol, a former priest, makes the argument that the church without violating its own theology could have zigged instead of zagging many times. The same is true for Israel's founders and, indeed, the zionist movement. Try reading Martin Buber's A Land of Two Peoples and you can see where the decision points were.
So on October 7 were all alternative paths eliminated by Hamas? perhaps so. The end point is the same. Judaism as we know it will never be the same regardless of the outcome for Israel itself. That is Magid's point. I think you are arguing that Israel is the sum total of Judaism and there in lies the disconnect between us.
Given your self description, you are actually a Karaite. An essential part of Judaism is, of course, the centuries of rabbinic interpretation including the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds and much else besides. If protecting the wellbeing of Jews is not a first priority, then nothing is left. I’m sorry that you seem to believe that the modern version of “tikkun olam” is some universal Jewish vision to help everyone else. It’s not, again the first priority is the Jewish people who are more than just a “religion” - that is to forget that such categories didn’t exist at Judaism formation during the Iron Age.
Israel is not the “sum total of Judaism”. Nothing in what I wrote can suggest that, so that is a straw horse among others you propose including your book list.
The reality you seem to cower from is the realization that whatever Israel did, it was going to encounter criticism. The rules change whenever Israel is involved. You propose no alternatives to the conduct of the war, or even to quell the massive disinformation campaign that is part of Hamas’ strategy that many in the world glom onto in a bit of credulousness that provides them cover to pour out their bile on the Jewish State.
You might have noticed that cries of genocide and much else started on October 8, while Israel was battling Hamas inside Israel. I know it’s difficult to deal with the outpouring of hatred, but your targets are misdirected - and you join Magid and Bartov in their error. You should be protesting Hamas as it alone holds the keys to ending Gaza’s suffering … and it is only in the weak position it’s in because of the IDF. On the battlefield, might makes right. If you really believe that Hamas can be negotiated into non-existence around some bargaining table, naïveté or a fear that violence might be the only way to destroy evil - which might not accord with your worldview - might be the reason.
You might wish to ponder this insight. “Anyone who has pity on the cruel, will show cruelty to the merciful.” (Midrash Tanchuma)
Oh, also happy to let you have the last word now. I have said all I have to say.
Glad you’ve agreed to expand beyond the Torah as the source for Jewish teaching. That said, stringing together cherry picked quotes taken from their context does not an argument make.
Ironically, you seem to be part of that cohort that would have the world’s lone Jewish state act according to Christian principles that no actual Christian country has ever abided by in wartime.
Or perhaps you’re the model of the liberal Robert Frost derided as a person “too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel.” Hard to say why you are so resistant to the very concept of self-preservation of the Jewish people as a primary directive of its identity and practice. There’s a reason it has survived for millennia.
Hmm. I am not a karaite - having looked that up - I am a garden variety reform Jew. I am currently reading Daf Yomi and I study with my Rabbi. Both those things include midrash and aggadah obviously.
You might be interested in some teaching sources from one of my favorite teachers Shai Held. He is a conservative Rabbi and a zionist of that helps you out:
A few sources for study, consideration, and discussion:
1. Proverbs 25:21
אִם־רָעֵ֣ב שֹׂ֭נַאֲךָ הַאֲכִלֵ֣הוּ לָ֑חֶם וְאִם־צָ֝מֵ֗א הַשְׁקֵ֥הוּ מָֽיִם׃
If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat; If he is thirsty, give him water to drink.
2. Midrash Mishle there
אם רעב שונאך האכילהו לחם ואם צמא השקהו מים. אמר ר' חמא בר חנינא אעפ"י שהשכים להורגך ובא רעב או צמא לתוך ביתך, האכילהו והשקהו, למה, [כב] כי גחלים אתה חותה על ראשו וה׳ ישלם לך, אל תקרי ישלם לך, אלא ישלימנו לך.
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him bread; and if he is thirsty, give him water.” Said R. Hama bar Hanina: Even though he intended to kill you, yet he arrived hungry or thirsty in your house, feed him and give him water. Why? “For you will be heaping live coals upon his head, and the Lord will reward (yeshalem) you”—do not read “will reward you” but rather “will reconcile him (yashlimenu) with you.”
3. Ralbag there
אם רעב שונאך - לא תמנע מלחון עליו להאכילו לחם ואם הוא צמא השקהו מים כי זאת מדה משובחת מאד להיטיב לכל האנשי' לאוהב ולשונ' ואם ירע לבך איך תיטיב לו תחת אשר עשה לך רעה תדע באמת כי אתה עם גמלך בזה הראוי לנפשך מטוב המדו' הנה לוקח נקמתך ממנו:
“If your enemy is hungry”—Do not refrain from showing him grace and feeding him bread. “And if he is thirsty, give him water”—For this is an extremely praiseworthy character trait to be good to all people, to a friend and to an enemy. But if you are bothered by the thought, how can you be good to him when he did bad to you? Know that in truth, in bestowing one of the greatest of virtues upon your own soul, you are taking revenge on him.
4. Peirush Shai Olamot to Proverbs
שונאך. עאכו״כ בנו ושכנו
Your enemy. All the more so his child and neighbor.
(Edited: To be clear, "Shai Olamot" is me.)
(Edited: To be clear, "Shai Olamot" is me.)
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Let us leave Hamas out of this. But not the civilians in Gaza who are worthy of our compassion and to whom the above surely applies.
You may wish to have your rabbis harmonize the Talmudic saying ““If someone comes to kill you, rise and kill him first” with all your pull quotes.
Correction: persecution of the Jews. first sentence second paragraph.
“Genocide” would be use of fuel-air munitions and incendiaries to blast and incinerate everything above ground. “Genocide” would be gathering all Gazans into prison camps then executing everyone except a minority kept for use as slave labor…until those slaves are too weak to continue then execute them too.
By that definition no genocide has ever been committed except the Holocaust and that is not true. What is going on in Gaza and what I believe is Israel's ultimate intention more closely resembles the Turkish genocide against the Armenians. Two things to consider about that genocide. First, It is known to have been one of the reasons Hitler believed he could get away with killing all the Jews in Europe. And second, I know many people of Armenian descent who live in the Boston suburbs and none of them have forgotten or forgiven - 4 generations later. The list of peoples who large diaspora's in America who have not forgotten or forgiven theier history is of course longer than that. History will not be kind to us in the end.
Charles Knapp, I find it interesting how you write a lengthy piece observing a flaw in argument and omittance of certain aspects while you yourself proceed to omit the most crucial of facts. One of them being the many statements from members of the Israeli government relating to annihilating Gaza or endorsing fascist ideologies, from Netanyahu downwards: Smotrich, Ben Givr, Katz, Chickli, Regev, Golan, Zohav, Karhi, Gamliel, Strook, Eliyahu - all of them made statements that would chill the blood in anybody's veins. Amsalem called for a civil war to silence all that is left of a progressive left, while Levin fights the High Court every time it tries to show that current Israeli practices are in breach of law.
Further, you fail to mention that the very same government has obstructed, and for a lengthy period totally blocked, vital food and medical supplies to enter Gaza, thus weaponising such vital supplies, which in itself constitutes a war crime.
Third, you omit the many reasonable claims from renowned scholarly institutions and international doctors that the death toll in Gaza is very likely underestimated.
Fourth, you do not mention the numerous instances where IDF soldiers recorded themselves gleeing while they were blowing up structures in Gaza.
Fifth, you omit the well documented contempt with which the relatives of hostages have regularly been met with by members of the Knesset.
Sixth, you ignore the fact that practically all infrastructure deemed necessary for survival of an entire group - social, educational, cultural, medical, economic, agricultural - has been destroyed in Gaza, to a degree that it most likely can not be repaired, certainly not without outside assistance - and here we are at the legal definition of genocide: some of it after it has been secured by IDF and there was no possible threat of it being abused by Hamas.
Seventh, you omit to mention that Israel has targeted journalists in Gaza in an unprecedented way and prohibited independent journalists from entering Gaza, thus controlling the type of information coming out of Gaza.
Eighth, you omit to note that Israel has breeched an active ceasefire by completely blocking talks to proceed to the next phase due to commence in February 2025, and launching an attack killing more than 400 people in one day, most of them civilians, in March 2025.
Perhaps most tellingly, you do not even mention the realities of the expansionist policies in the occupied West Bank or that Palestinians there are subject to military law with little to no chance of appealing against injustices committed against them - not only since 7th October. Since then, the situation there has deteriorated drastically.
As I see it, it is on you to take a deep look at yourself before accusing others of flawed argument.
The only thing you are channeling is Hamas’ increasing desperation as it realizes it has not only destroyed Iran and its “ring of fire” but is all alone after the Arab League’s declaration that Hamas needed to disarm and leave Gaza.
Rather than demand that Hamas surrender, its supporters double down on their push of Hamas propaganda. It’s a strange position to be in for those who profess devotion to the welfare of Gazans. From the beginning, they turned their backs on Gazans, joining with Hamas in seeing them as canon fodder.
The war ends the sooner the better for all with Hamas’ clear defeat. Then, as has happened in every other conflict, investigations can take place to analyze what happened in Gaza and how the war was prosecuted.
People like Bartov will be shown to be correct if the results of those investigations support his claims. Based on what is known at the moment, including the targeting protocols, civilian warnings and relocations, allowing in aid (even if the NGOs fail on the distribution end - an expected result as such a thing has never been attempted in any other war and is not required under the LOAC), such vindication appears highly unlikely.
In the meantime, I suppose you can still dream your malevolent dreams about Jews. Just don’t expect to be taken seriously by any careful and open minded observer.
I see there is no talking to you. You seem to blindly follow the path that an extremist government is laying out, ignoring not only that government's clear statements over the last couple of years (even days!) but Israel's policy and practice with regard to Palestinians over the last few decades. Your wild throw of accusation without providing any on-the-point argument is hollow, consumed with hatred you're eschewing every point I tried to make and accuse others of one-sided was and worse. Not with one word I defended what Hamas per se stands for. I guess it's pointless to tell you that it's rise to power was very much welcomed and even supported by Netanyahu and those of similar mindset or that according to Haim Rubinstein, a great number of hostages could've been back in their homes within days of their capture - s.Interview in the Times of Israel: https://www.timesofisrael.com/no-doubt-netanyahu-preventing-hostage-deal-charges-ex-spokesman-of-families-forum/
In one I do agree with you, however: history will tell. I fear, it'll not be favourable for Israel. And future generations will suffer, perhaps not economically but certainly psychologically.
All you have written illustrates a complete incomprehension of Israeli politics and the goals of the Muslim Brotherhood for Jewish sovereignty.
Simply put, if your understanding of Israel’s ultimate goal for Palestinians had even a grain of truth to it, they would have been destroyed sometime over the past 77 years. Even after the savagery of October 7, if your understanding was correct, the IDF would have simply flattened Gaza in a week or so rather than risk its soldiers lives.
It’s not as if it was the organized pro-Hamas demonstrations that began October 8 that stayed Israel’s hand, so please spare us your foolish talking points.
And speaking of talking points, the initial - and to some extent continuing - Hamas demand amounted to nothing less than immunity for its October 7 genocide (and that is a correct use of the term under the Srebrenica case decided by the ICFY), a release of thousands of imprisoned killers and a right to remain in control of Gaza to rearm and try again. No country would ever accede to such a surrender unless it were defeated on the field of battle. And only the most credulous beloved (even today) that Hamas would release every hostage and not hold some back as future bargaining chits. Remember their claims of “losing contact” or, as in the notorious case of Shiri Bibas returning the wrong corpse?
Maybe stop focusing on an event you clearly do not understand for ideological or other reason, and look at the big picture instead. Sinwar’s strategic miscalculation of October 7 has, thanks to the IDF, resulted in the humiliation and potential destabilization of the Iranian regime, and an opportunity for the Lebanese and Syrians to rid themselves of Iranian overlordship (the Lebanese just sent Iran’s visiting foreign minister packing and Syria refused him overflight rights - and if you don’t appreciate what that means, you are beyond help).
Also Israel’s inevitable and upcoming defeat of Hamas in Gaza City and the remaining camps will provide the Palestinians with yet another opportunity to reorient their goal away from a fantasy that has brought them nothing tangible and toward cooperating and collaborating with Israel - but only after they formally acknowledge it as the nation state of the Jewish people, as conceived by the international community going back to 1922.
If they miss this opportunity, it may be their last, as the Saudis and others will join an expanded Abraham Accords. That’s the future, unless Turkey or whatever is left of Iran tries to sidetracked the effort. The real world is unforgiving and the Palestinians have a choice: join in a march to a brighter future for all or inevitably reassert their general Arab identity - whether Syrian or Egyptian - and shed their recent national identity which has brought them only self-inflicted humiliation.
To the West, it’s an easy choice. In honor-shame societies, such as exist in Muslim countries, it is one fraught with challenges.
Your opinion is flawed, and just that: an opinion. Anyone would know, had Israel simply "done away" with the Palestinians before now in an obvious way, it would have lost its Western allies and become a pariah state. Now Netanyahu's government seized the opportunity and is blatantly pursuing Greater Israel - at the cost of the remaining hostages, just listen to what ministers are saying. As for the Palestinians, they are presently looking for getting a deal with some wartorn African country to get rid of them. Obviously you also didn't hear of the enthusiastic endorsement of Trump's Riviera plan or Katz's plan of a no-exit camp at annihilated Rafah or the huge settlement proposal in the West Bank from a few days ago. I recommend to go and watch some news away from government channels from time to time. Goodbye.
This is a very long and convoluted way of shouting "No! no! NO!" while covering your ears and ignoring all the arguments of the three essays, this one and the two it's analysing.
The constant insistence on making October 7th THE special event that "started it all", like if everything was "just fine" before that terrible day, is an excuse to be ashamed of. As mentioned in the article, back in the 80s Yeshayahu Leibowitz and others already said that the oppression of Palestinians, the negation of Palestinians as a people were leading Israel towards "Judeo-Nazism". That's his words.
The state of Israel and its crooked Zionist ideology tainted with supremacism and racism as it is now has become not only a menace to Judaism, but a menace to all Jews around the world. See the work of Ella Shohat.
Jews should reconcile with life in the diaspora, and maybe anti-Zionism which was prevalent among European Jewish communities until 1940. Who wants to live in a segregated ethnoreligious state? Certainly not me, thank you very much.
Excellent piece
Yeah don't these organizations and SA want to OVERTURN the huge precedent in Croatia v Serbia? lol
Thank you. I'm sharing this with a team of Jewish Israelis, Palestinians from Israel and the West Bank and others who are involved in Nonviolent Communication initiatives there. I would like to add to the important points you articulate that it is crucial to use this understanding to generate empathy for the millions of people who just can't absorb the shocking and dismal precipice where we now stand. Not to meet the hatred and violence and supremacy with more of the same.
Thank you so much. I hope it helps. Much appretiated
It’s not genocide if the “victim” group agrees to be killed. That’s what they agree to. If they want food, water, health, and life they pretty much know how to get it. Stop shooting, lay down their weapons, let the hostages go. That’s it. They don’t want to do that. That’s their choice. But don’t call it genocide. Call it suicide.
My family arrives in Fairharbor tomorrow for two weeks. I'd love to get together and chat and we'll see you on July 28 in Seaview.
Dear Rexi, thank you for letting me know how my response lands with you. And that is so far from what is in my heart and my concern. I'm wondering if you could help me create a message that both makes clear that the attacks and genocide against the Palestinian people is the main horror and also holds empathy for all the people who don't have the capacity to face that. I really would appreciate help from you or others to create that messaging. Thank you so much.
The Naaahqbaaa was written as a lament that 5 to 7 Arab armies could not defeat the emerging Jewish state that accepted the UN partition when the Arabs did not. The invading army's promised to soak the land of Palestine with the blood of Jews and the army had one gun for every three soldiers and an Air Force consisting of Piper Cubs yet humans and God came together to bring the eternal nation into its third millennium.
Regarding Islam the 7th century barbarian bandit theology this is just a manifestation of it, the Quran says that Israel is a home for the Jews and does not mention Palestine nor is the letter p existence in Arabic further representing the falsity of the phony Palestinians
The religion of peace.com can give you perspective
You forget to tell that these Arab states were still under colonial rule or just came out of million lives costing anti colonial struggles, aremd with just some ww1 level weapons. And the UN partition granted by those still very much colonial minded western WW2 winner countries.
Friggin ugly hasbara. 🤮
Pointless bloviating blather from a goitard yet again🐖💨
Lawrence of Arabia 🥱
Half a million Muslims fought with shitler 🤹🏿♀️🤷🏿♀️
There was no arms embargo against the Arabs and they were trained and armed by the British but the British were arms embargoing the Jews along with the Americans and everywhere else, fuck you guys are stupid and hasbara means truth and that's why you're triggered like a goitard is cursed to be triggered forever more
Goi'tardery epitomized 😝🤪
The year is 5785 and the land is lush and green because prophecy is being fulfilled with replacement theology being kicked & curb stomped first in 1948 with a full throat reaming in 1967 with territorial restoration fully intact of the land of Israel as God intended it to be for the Jews in perpetuity, the eternal Nation 🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱
31000 flavors of jezeusian delusional mythology still waiting on their failed Messiah👀🤦🏿♀️🤷🏿♀️🤹🏿♀️
Nothing says failed Messiah like needing to return a second time to accomplish what wasn't accomplished the first 🥱🐖💨 it's called the crucifixion because if it was real it would be called the crucifact🎯😮💨🤬🙄🤔
There are 25 fewer Christian countries in the last 100 years lost to Islam, the population in Bethlehem went down from 80% to 6% after the Jews signed the peace treaty with the Arabs under Oslo which resulted in the intifada thus illustrating the futility of negotiating with Arabs but under pressure from the US it happened, sovereignty is the next step.
80% of the trans Jordanian mandate which was the land intended for the Jews was given away unilaterally by the British to the hashemite king from Saudi Arabia to rule over the Arabs, the Palestinians have their Homeland in Jordan.
Seethe more and tithe harder, maybe Jesus will come this Sunday on the wrong Sabbath as you consume his flesh and blood, nothing says Sabbath observance like cannibal Christ on the wrong Sabbath.
Many are acknowledging that Mormons are peak Christianity with the nifty Temple, spiffy uniforms, a rainbow coalition of international followers and they consider the rest of the 31000 flavors of crucifixionists gentiles 😉
Fun fact crucifixionists have a dead Jew hanging in their home or around their neck between their ample bosoms like your adulterous Marjorie Taylor green, a dead Jew hanging on a torture device has become normalized amongst the crucifixionists who eat the dead Jews flesh and blood on the wrong Sabbath... Some Faith you got there 🧟♀️
Sure the brittish trained and armed em for a real war... Against their own colonial occupiers, the brittish?
Nah, any training and arming can only have been to oppress the local mostly not armed population. You would call em kapos equivalent?
Meanwhile Israel got groups of Jews trained and armed by fashist Italy as anticommunist forces, for example.. don't remember why those Italians thought that's a good idea, but hey .. :/
https://substack.com/@thatdude1/note/c-139865912?r=36c3b5
Or french. Somehow it's mostly brittish in my mind as colonizers there but french played as well.
https://substack.com/@thatdude1/note/c-139865912?r=36c3b5
"The 'Palestinian' people do not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity.
In reality, today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a 'Palestinian people', since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism."
Zuheir Mohsen, PLO executive representative, to Dutch newspaper Trouw, 1977
Zionist soldiers in Gaza are not shooting and crying, nor are they just shooting, they are shooting and laughing.
How typical that those like you paint all IDF conscripts with the same brush. When I'm sure you'd object to anyone saying that all Gazans share the evil objectives and behaviours of Hamas members. Hypocrisy is what they call that.
There are no innocent Arabs in Gaza only starving innocent Jews
The derangement of the Islamic deflectionism shared by both Jewish and gentile is remarkable to forever offset the reality of jihad and conquer and caliphate as Hamas represents and as epitomized by the 6000 civilians of all ages and sexes who came over the border to burn murder loot maim humiliate mutilate and kidnap.
The religion of peace.com can give pages of documentation of just the last months jihad attacks around the world, Israel's not turning the other cheek thus therefore won't be participating in the caliphate plan that the rest of the world has coming due to its passivity and Islamic deflectionism
Are they? Are they laughing and cheering, kicking and spitting on mutilated people and corpses? Or was that the Gazans who celebrated as Israeli civilians were kidnapped and brought back to Gaza on 10/7? I'll show you videos of Palestinians reveling (and participating) in the torture of civilians if you show me videos of IDF soldiers laughing while they kill people.
Thanks! Very disturbing, very relevant. And of course, Rabbi Froman must be crying endless tears now. Somehow, we can't lose sight of the possibility of miracles though: a turning, as soon as possible, towards some kind of Fromanian 2-state confederation. The first obstacle to that is of course the current Israeli "leader" and his disgusting team. Let's stay in touch these very tough days. I'm making bit by bit progress in finishing "Froman's Way" - which I dream of being a little jewel of hope......
Kepp up the good work and looking for the sliver of light in the darkness!
Here's our current page, with current trailer on top, incl your cameo!: https://www.jerusalemny.com/fromansway77.html
"I once asked someone I casually know, an ardent Zionist, “what could Israel do that would cause you not to support it?”. He was silent for a moment before looking at me and said, “Nothing.” "
Your question can be interpreted in more than one way. If the question is meant as “what could Israel do that would cause you not to support Israel?", this is not the gotcha you think it is. For many people, such as those who live in Israel or those in the diaspora who, as expected from any one calling themselves a Jew, feel deep solidarity with their fellow Jews everywhere, this is not some theoretical abstraction. This is the life and well being of everyone we hold dear. Of course our love and loyalty to Israel and its people is unconditional! This doesn't mean condoning every action of the state, or agreeing with the current government. To the contrary, I personally would have no problem acknowledging Israel was committing a genocide if there was any serious evidence for this claim (there simply isn't). It wouldn't change my stance in the slightest. Israel is our country, it is under threat by unscrupulous enemies who make no secret of what they would do to us if given the chance, and therefore we should defend it no matter what. If we did wrong we should apologize, not commit national suicide.
Sadly, the phenomenon of the self hating “kapo Jew” is not uncommon throughout Jewish history. Whether through profound ignorance or some deep seated psychological need (ie Stockholm Syndrome) such individuals turn their backs on their own people, land, culture and history. What they never understand until it is too late is that there is no great success in being on the last train to Auschwitz.
The accusation that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza when it is fighting a war of self defense, has killed so few civilians relative to all other urban wars, and when Gaza’s population is rising, is simply a 21st century blood libel and pure antisemitism.
The day Hamas disarms, surrenders and releases all hostages is the day the war ends, as everyone knows full well, and that has been the case since Oct 8. The blood of all dead civilians is on the hands of these savages and their clueless useful idiot supporters in the West.
If only such supposed humanitarians crying crocodile tears cared more for Palestinian lives than they despise Jewish ones….
“Can we understand the growing young Jewish rejection of Zionism in some circles as precisely that sentiment; does “Not in Our Name” mean “This is Not Our Judaism.””
I would call into question whether most of these young Jews have *any* Judaism not just not this (Zionist, militaristic) Judaism. I also question whether they have an alternative Judaism that could ever be in their name and that is anything more than ephemeral.
The Ultra Orthodox Anti-Zionists are clearly (i.e. very visibly) committed to Judaism and Jewish life in the most traditional sense. If Israel were to disappear tomorrow, it would essentially make no difference to them.
Would the same true for the throng of secular anti-Zionist Jews? I recall on X a scene from a pro-Palestine demonstration where Chabadniks were wrapping tefillin on a young “anti-Zionist Jew”. This young man clarified on X that he only agreed to put it on if the Chabad shluchim said “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.” Which of course they did because they only care about a Jew performing a mitzvah. But I found this curious - there is nothing “Zionistic” about putting on tefillin. If Judaism is not Zionism and you can be Jewish without being a Zionist, donning tefillin is a ‘no-brainer.’ It’s totally Jewish-but-not-Zionist. That the young man didn’t want to do it unless he could somehow make it about Palestine is very revealing. Or photos of “anti-Zionist” Jews in a kippa eating at a non-kosher McDonald’s post demonstration. Or JVP members writing Hebrew backwards. Their Judaism seems entirely performative. One gets the impression that if all of Palestine were liberated tomorrow, these people would never again identify themselves as Jewish as it would cease having any cultural cache with their peers once the conflict was over.
The most ardent (non-Haredi) Jewish anti-Zionists seem unable to divorce Judaism from Zionism even as they insist they’re not the same. We know all the Haredi anti-Zionists will marry other Jews and have Jewish children from now till the Messiah arrives. Will the other anti-Zionist Jews do the same?
A key insight of Zionism was that, in the secular age, even putting violent antisemitism to the side, Jews couldn’t survive as a civilization without either retreating to religion and the ghetto, isolating themselves from the developed, scientific world, or establishing a state which would be the locus of Jewish life. Demography is destiny and if most of the people around you are Jews, including the most secular and atheist ones, Jewish civilization and continuity is relatively assured versus the situation in which you are a tiny but well integrated minority.
I have never heard a non-Haredi anti-Zionist Jew put forth any vision of self-perpetuating Jewish life. The Haredi have mitzvot and the self-imposed ghetto. What do the other ones have? Woke-sounding Tikkun Olam?
Israeli nationalism and the war in Gaza has already destroyed or warped Judaism amongst the “modern Orthodox/frum” whom have turned the Land of Israel into a god. They should be grappling with what members of their movement and graduates of their yeshivas have become and are willing to justify. But they are definitely not the ones saying “Not in our name.”
There are thousands of anti Zionist Jews creating a new, spiritual, just Judaism beyond Zionism who are not secular and not ultra religious.
Maybe. I haven’t come across any, but of course, that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Anecdote is not a substitute for real data. I would be very interested if anyone has done a scientific survey which looks at how committedly Jewish non-Haredi anti-Zionist Jews are outside the realm of politics.
And I’d like to understand how this “new, spiritual, just Judaism beyond Zionism” answers the Jews’ demographic problem - namely, outside of Israel, Jews are a tiny, tiny minority. The pulling force of assimilation is almost impossible to avoid. I understand how the ultra religious avoid it. I understand how Israelis avoid it (that’s easy, the Jewish population is the majority). All other streams of Judaism appear to be on a demographic death spiral (I don’t absolve myself - my kid is only half Jewish though being raised Jewish - the chances my grandchildren or great-grandchildren will identify fully as Jews is remote).
Do the mere “thousands” of anti-Zionist Jews have any theory or strategy as to how to guarantee Jewish continuity for future generations?
The best way to guarantee the end of Judaism is to do what the state of Israel is doing
That might be true. In Roman-occupied Judea, the Zealots, high on god and lacking a realistic assessment of the geopolitical situation, led the Jews to an unmitigated disaster from which Jews will never recover. It was perhaps worse than the Holocaust. Israel’s modern-day zealots may end up driving the third Jewish commonwealth off the same cliff. If that occurs, Judaism and Jews are finished.
But that’s the point I’ve been making. Judaism and Jews cannot survive another millennia without either the nation-state or the ghetto.
The state of Israel has zero legitimacy at this point, it’s past the point of no return. I’m more worried about their victims than Israeli Jews, quite frankly.
I feel the same way about Pakistan. But that’s neither here nor there. My comments were solely about Jewish continuity and how is it even possible absent either intense religiousity or a state with a demographic majority. Nowhere did I make a value judgement that Jewish continuity supersedes or ought to supersede the rights, let alone the lives, of others.
Your name epitomizes the as a Jew Jew
Putz you 🎯
Pathetic Islamic deflectionism blaming the victims for jihad fuck off with your Chelm nudnik logic
There are no innocent Arabs in Gaza
6,000 of them spilled over after breaking the fence dressed in civilian gear in all ages and abilities to kill murder mutilate rape and burn and they're still holding hostages how did you get so retarded with your ironic name as a Jew Jew
Clingy to those who hate people and cringey to those you come from
Shtikdrek nahrshkeit mishigoss from the ignorant self-hating bloviating blowhard
Are you familiar with Svara, Rabbi Benay Lappe, and “crash theory”? https://svara.org/crash-theory/
No but looks interesting, thanks!
Here are a couple podcast episodes to check out… https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/judaism-unbound/id1088015938?i=1000700227324 and https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/judaism-unbound/id1088015938?i=1000699133244
I think the strategy is same as it’s been the last 100 years or so… make new innovative Jewish spaces that really appeal to younger Jews and meet their needs and are welcoming to people holding multiple identities beyond Jewish.
But isn’t that strategy a failure? There are still fewer Jews in the world today than in 1939. Outside of Israel and the Orthodox, growth has been anemic. The core American Jewish population hasn’t budged since 1960 even with 250,000+ immigrants coming from former USSR.
There can’t be Jewish civilization without Jewish continuity and outside the Orthodox and Israeli population, Jews have decided not to reproduce themselves beyond even replacement level.
“and are welcoming to holding multiple identities beyond Jewish”
There comes a point when you have so many identities that each one becomes less and less important. There are millions of Americans with partial Welsh heritage - have you met very many for whom being Welsh meant anything at all? Or Welsh culture was an important part of their lives? Even the more numerous Irish-Americans are far more American than Irish and people in Ireland don’t view them as fellow countrymen. But there’s no risk of the Irish disappearing because they have Ireland.
Both Reform and Conservative Jewish spaces have become increasingly open to intermarried couples and their children - but this doesn’t seem to have made any noticeable difference.
Liberalizing and being more welcoming has been tried and is not working. A decidedly non-Zionist, even anti-Zionist, modern Judaism became popular in Germany. The result was that in the 60 years between German unification and 1933, German Jewry barely grew by 20,000 people and even this was thanks to immigration from the east, not natural growth. Perhaps without Liberal Judaism, more German Jews would’ve just converted to Christianity altogether, so at best, a new, innovative Judaism that appeals to people who are neither Zionist nor especially devout delays the inevitable, not reverses it.
A lot of this demographic decline is just due to Jews being no different than other western, urban populations - rapidly secularizing with dwindling interest in organized religion - we see how empty churches are becoming. The Church can’t seem to stem the tide either. But Christianity can afford to lose millions - Jews can’t - unless we’re fine with being like the Zoroastrians, a people on the verge of extinction and totally irrelevant.
I’d argue such a religion without Zionism would be something new but not Judaism. Judaism from its earliest covenantal foundations defines itself not merely as a set of private spiritual beliefs, but as the collective destiny of a people. In the Abrahamic covenant, God’s promise to Abraham establishes not only personal blessing, but the formation of a nation: “And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great…” (Genesis 12:2), and inseparably, “And I will give to you, and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession…” (Genesis 17:8). At Mount Sinai, Israel receives the Torah not as isolated individuals but as a corporate nation: “And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation” (Exodus 19:6). The Talmud reinforces this peoplehood in Sanhedrin 44a: “A Jew, even though he has sinned, is still a Jew,” affirming inalienable belonging to the Jewish nation.
This concept of peoplehood is inseparable from the centrality of the Land of Israel, which is woven throughout Jewish liturgy and practice. The daily Amidah includes the prayer, “Sound the great shofar for our freedom, and raise a banner to gather our exiles, and gather us together from the four corners of the earth into our land,” alongside the plea, “Return in mercy to Jerusalem Your city… rebuild it speedily in our days.” The Grace After Meals likewise implores God to “have mercy… on Jerusalem Your city, on Zion the dwelling of Your glory, on the kingdom of the house of David… rebuild Jerusalem speedily in our days.” The great festivals reinforce the same theme: the Passover Seder concludes with “Next year in Jerusalem,” and Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the year, ends with the same refrain. These prayers and rituals show that Jewish religious life is continually oriented toward the return to the homeland.
Rabbinic and philosophical voices underscore this same vision. Rabbi Judah HaLevi in the Kuzari (2:24) likens the Land of Israel to the “soul” of the Jewish people, inseparable from their divine mission. Maimonides codifies in his Mishneh Torah (Laws of Kings 11:1) that the Messiah’s role is to “restore the kingdom of David… rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem, and gather the dispersed of Israel,” making restoration to the land a religious goal. The Talmud in Ketubot 110b further declares: “One should always live in the Land of Israel, even in a city inhabited mostly by idolaters, and not live outside the Land, even in a city inhabited mostly by Jews.” In sum, Jewish religion, liturgy, and law consistently affirm that Jewish peoplehood and nationhood are essential categories of faith, and that return to the homeland is not a secondary hope but a central pillar of Jewish practice and belief.
If one were to imagine a religion resembling Judaism in theology, ethics, and ritual, but stripped of the ideas of Jewish peoplehood, nationhood, and the eventual return to the Land of Israel, it would no longer be Judaism but something fundamentally new. Judaism is not solely a personal creed of faith and morality, it is the lived covenant of a people bound together by shared history, collective destiny, and attachment to a homeland promised by God. To remove these elements would unravel the covenantal framework set forth in the Torah and echoed throughout the liturgy, in which Israel is consistently addressed as a nation and exhorted to remember Zion. A Judaism without Zion is a Judaism without Abraham’s covenant, without Sinai’s national revelation, and without the prayers that anchor Jewish life to Jerusalem. Such a faith might retain certain symbols or practices, but it would be a different religion altogether, divorced from the very identity that has sustained the Jewish people across millennia of exile and return.
I’m talking about political
Zionism that began in the 1880s which turned into statist Zionism. Not the spiritual yearning for Zion or the land itself touch are core to Judaism. I recommend Shaul Magid’s Necessity of Exile.
I am familiar with the book, but I find its arguments both flawed and misguided.
By privileging diaspora existence, Magid diminishes the theological centrality of Israel in Jewish liturgy, prayer, and history. In doing so, he does not merely reinterpret Judaism but distorts it, effectively hollowing out its covenantal core and replacing it with something else entirely, a new religion masquerading as the old.
Political Zionism arose in response to persistent antisemitism and the failures of exile to provide safety or dignity. Without a sovereign state, Jews were perpetually vulnerable. To suggest that exile is preferable undermines the very foundations of Jewish self-determination and security.
The so-called “necessity of exile” is dangerously naive in a world where antisemitism is again on the rise. To elevate exile as an ethical posture of humility or repair is to forget that the absence of sovereignty cost millions of Jewish lives. An ethic of powerlessness is simply untenable in a hostile modern world. The atrocities of October 7 and the subsequent surge in global antisemitism confirm why Israel remains indispensable as a refuge. In this context, the call to exile as a guiding framework seems especially out of touch and even reckless in the face of renewed existential threats.
Ethical responsibility does not require political powerlessness. Jewish sovereignty in Israel has enabled humanitarian contributions, cultural revival, and self-defense. While nationalism carries undeniable risks, sovereignty ensures survival. To prefer the ethic of exile over the responsibilities of statehood may be intellectually attractive to some, but it ignores the very real dangers Jews face without a homeland.
A purely exilic identity may stimulate thought, but it is ultimately hollow and wholly inadequate for sustaining Jewish flourishing in the twenty-first century. Where exile resigns itself to decline, Jewish sovereignty opens the path to enduring life and flourishing.
You spelled several wrong
Thanks for this very interesting and subtle post. The point that nationalism when mixed with religion is often a form of idolatry is equally valid for non-Jews.
As a rabbinical student who is hoping to help build the post-Gaza Judaism, this is a great read and very helpful. Let's do this.
"Gaza may have started as a war, but it is no longer a war, it is the destruction of an entire society."
I won't be cute and ask you to "define society" - let's agree that this is the case. Yes, Israel is trying to destroy Gaza.
Using "Gaza" as a synecdoche of the whole, which includes Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and the dozen or so other militant organizations that are present in the place - has said it wants to destroy Israel. It has stated this objective this clearly, openly, and repeatedly.
Why shouldn't you destroy them?
Honest question. Why should Israel not destroy an entity that has clearly stated its intention to destroy it?
Honest counter-question: how do you destroy these entities? Does it involve killing every last member? Their wives and parents and sisters and children? Does it involve reeducation camps? If Israel *should* destroy Gaza as synecdoche of the militant groups, what do you think this would this look like?
Why not offer the Gazans the opportunity to leave and make a better life for themselves somewhere else? They are penned up in Gaza and not allowed to flee at the moment. Unlike every other war ever.
And whatever unique elements their culture has can be replicated elsewhere. Though I have yet to learn what those are. Even the genocidal Jew- hatred is not particularly unique to them.
For those who do not wish to leave, they would need to swear peace with Israel as a Jewish state or be kicked out. And leadership would need to publicly state they condemn October 7, that the Nakba was caused by the failure of Arab nations to win a war of annihilation and not a Jew-initiated ethnic cleansing or theft of land from "rightful owners" (i.e. renounce the "Nakba libel"), and provide proof that they are not teaching their kids jihad and jew- hatred in order to receive aid to rebuild. If nobody is willing to do this then they can be forced to relocate -- perhaps they can switch places with the Syrian Druze for instance, who are very motivated to live in peace with Israel. Gaza could be a Druze statelet that could one day declare independence.
Would this be ethnic cleansing? Not really - Israeli Arabs have the same ethnicity as Gazans. So do most Jordanians and Egyptians. It would be a forcible transfer of those who are not willing to leave. Just like the many that happened in the wake of the 2nd World War.
Do we care about how things can be made to sound or about what is best for actual humans, achieving a workable outcome where there can be peace and no more killing in the future? Living side by side with a population indoctrinated to attempt to murder and erase your entire society does not work.
Was the denazification of Germany a genocide of Nazi culture?
Your first two paragraphs are naive. The only countries willing to take Palestinians are Libya (in the midst of a civil war of its own), Ethiopia (prone to droughts, famines, and vicious regimes), and Indonesia (a Muslim country but not an Arabic-speaking one and located far, far away). Imagine yourself having to choose one as your next forever home.
As for the beginning of your third: "wear peace... or be kicked out." If those are your choices, how many would commit perjury? I could go on and quibble with your response, but, frankly, it's tedious.
What you seem to be leaving out is the fundamental Jewish concept that every human being is created 'betselem elokim' and therefore Palestinians must have human rights, civil rights, bodily autonomy, and every other right you take for granted. This is something that our government completely ignores, preferring to label all of Hamas (and Gaza, because, as I'm told over and over again, there are no innocent bystanders there) Amalek. The 'tselem elokim' truth must coexist with the truth that the Jewish people has a right to a homeland in some part of the land called 'erets yisrael' in our ancient texts. Every decision and plan for the future must acknowledge both. Any decision or plan that leaves one or the other out is irresponsible.
Well, how has the current situation been working out? Is it humane for Palestinians to be indoctrinated into a death cult and shot into compliance by Hamas? Maybe trying something new would be better. Also there are consequences for people when their leaders start wars and lose.
And if the swearing of peace is a lie then that's better than not swearing peace at all, and then there can be safeguards in place to guarantee compliance in order to receive support. Or immediate deportation if you break it.
How are Palestinian human rights doing under Hamas and in the middle of the war? My family moved around the world multiple times to seek our human rights and I'm glad they did, so I'm not denying the humanity of Gazans in suggesting a move could be better - and maybe with some creativity, better options than the ones you suggest could be found. Because unfortunately there has not yet been a Gazan leadership who was capable of creating a situation in which human rights could be realized. That's very sad but Israel cannot achieve human rights for them.
What solution do you see for Gazans to be able to exercise human rights?
This exchange is inane.
"Why not offer the Gazans the opportunity to leave and make a better life for themselves somewhere else?"
Two million Gazans aren't leaving. That's a fantasy.
"Well, how has the current situation been working out?"
What's that got to do with anything?
As far as Hamas is concerned, fine.
They've dragged Israel into a quagmire.
The fractures in Israeli society are as big as ever.
Meanwhile, Hamas after 650 days of war runs Gaza.
They don't leave because Hamas and Egypt will not let them. Syrians and Ukrainians get to leave war zones but Gazans do not. It is inhumane - their lives are worth nothing but a photo op to those who profess to support them.
https://nypost.com/2025/05/07/world-news/new-poll-shows-nearly-half-of-gazans-would-leave-if-given-opportunity/
I am saying that if we keep doing the same thing, we will only continue having endless war which is a bad situation for everyone but Hamas. So we should do something different as I suggested. Because what other option gets Gazans into a better situation as individuals? And Israelis too - everyone benefits if Gazans are allowed to emigrate. As far as Gazan peoplehood, if they want that, a functional identity is easier to achieve when they are off the public dole and can accept they are not taking back all of Israel. Israel cannot keep resetting the playing board. That is actually cruel to everyone involved. Because the same awful pattern will just play out again.
Because there children are buried there?
Honestly, who would qualify as an objective observer at this point? Most aid organizations and newspapers appear to be deeply compromised by a combination of extreme leftism and manipulation by Hamas that they do not disclose and also the financial rewards to aid organizations that the Gazan victimhood narrative sustains. The reality distortion field of antisemitism appears to permeate journalism and NGOs. The new aid foundation in Gaza appears to be a welcome exception.
John Spencer and Douglas Murray seem to be providing reasonable fact- based assessments - do you disagree?
Who would you like to see allowed into Gaza who is not allowed in currently? And who would guarantee the safety of those allowed in?
A counter-question that doesn't answer the original isn't honest.
Let me rephrase. It wasn't so much a counter-question as it was a request for clarification of what the OP meant when she wrote, "Why should Israel not destroy an entity that has clearly stated its intention to destroy it?"
The original question posed a clear moral dilemma: if an entity openly declares its intent to destroy you—and not just once, but over time, and then acts on that intent—why shouldn't you destroy it?
That’s the ethical dilemma on the table.
If you can’t or won’t engage with that directly, just say so.
If your position is ‘No, it’s never justified under any circumstances,’ fine. But stop with the bad-faith deflections.
I honestly don't know what "destroy an entity" means. It's an abstraction. In concrete terms, does it mean kill every Gazan? Or something else?
Since I don't think you understand what the word "honestly" means, I'll bow out here and leave you to arguing with Rachel.
Regardless of the fact that you don't want to engage with the dilemma, it's there, like Niels Bohr's horseshoe.
The counter already implicitly includes the answer to the question posed. “Why should Israel not?” — it might require indeed perpetrating a genocide, and surely there are undoubtedly good reasons not to do so?
Dear Professor Magid,
I would urge you to consider the possibility that to judge a morally complex situation such as war in an urban setting, "expertise" in genocide, whatever that means, is useless without expertise in warfare. Has the distinguished professor Bartov seriously put himself in the shoes of those responsible for the life and well being of the people of Israel? Has he weighed all the options and has he come up with a militarily and politically sound method of dealing with Hamas in which a lot fewer Palestinian civilians are dead, but at the same time Hamas doesn't come out of this unscathed and ready to carry out additional attacks? If professor Bartov has done this in a serious way, I would like to learn what his reasoning is. I suspect Professor Bartov either hasn't bothered or makes some fanciful assumptions about the efficacy of appeasement or about the existence of some as unspecified method of tunnel warfare where the civilian population, openly used as camouflage, stays unhurt without being removing from the site of battle. This kind of self indulgence doesn't make him or you morally superior.
I refer you to this piece yesterday by two other experts on the Holocaust - Michael Berenbaum and Menachem Z. Rosensaft in the Journal of Jewish Philanthropy "It is Not Genocide: A response to Omer Bartov " https://ejewishphilanthropy.com/not-genocide-a-response-to-omer-bartov/
This is so maddening! R’ Magid, The Necessity of Exile was useful if not vital two years ago, but now here we are. WHAT JEWS FEEL AND THE ‘FUTURE OF JUDAISM’ ARE NOT IMPORTANT TODAY. Either Israelis are tens of thousands of murders deep into Genocide by ordinance or they are not (they are). Accordingly, the only relevant question is how to stop them and reverse any of their viciousness that can still be undone. Was the primary question in the final months of the Shoah, what taint a campaign of domination and extermination might leave on storied German philosophical traditions? Should the tail end of the confederacy have privileged voices concerned with rescuing the legacy of enslaver culture? How are this note, the arguments of Klein and Harari, and the recent frothy appeal of Mandy Patinkin not examples of the obsessive, solipsistic self-absorption that brought us to this day? That Israeli supremacists and their external enablers have likely destroyed Judaism for most of us as well can be added to their list of wrongdoings but is far secondary.
Would the destruction of the confederacy slaver tradition have found itself on a list of “wrongdoing” or the list of “fortunate side effects”? It would be no different for Judaism.
A lot of anti Zionist Jews seem to have severe amnesia about the traditional mythological glorification of genocidal conquest and slavery in the Torah. Anti Zionist Jews devoted to Judaism are like anti-racist Americans who revere the Confederacy.
The Torah doesn't glorify those things.
Have you read it? If not, you shouldn’t be defending it.
Numbers 31
“The Lord said to Moses, “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.””
Numbers 31:15
“Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.”
Don’t gaslight on behalf of the abomination that is the Torah. It’s worse than Mein Kampf.
I stand by my words. There are many things in Torah and many of them are hard. But the book itself doesn't advise those things as the correct path to take in life. I can't speak to the comparison you make because I haven't read Mein Kampf. I have read Torah and it is the reason I object to the entire zionist enterprise.
It was the correct path to take for Moses and his thugs. The Torah claims to promise Palestine to Israel forever. And it commands the genocide of the Canaanites to acquire it. Jews have throughout history, including its earliest history, used that as justification to wage war in order to conquer Palestine. The book doesn't just "advise" slavery, it *commands* it at times, and it *sanctifies* at other times. It *commands* the murder of homsexuals. It commands a lot of atrocious things, which is even more than simple "advice.". Well, if you ever come across to reading Mein Kampf you will discover it never commands genocide explicitly like the Torah does. And if you ever read other religious texts, such as the Tao Te Ching, you will discover that it doesn't either. The Torah isn't an inkblot, and it has historically shown itself to be the cultural foundation of a genocidal slaver cult that is carrying out a genocide today. Standing by a book that commands one of the characters the cult reveres the most to enslave female virgins indeed must be hard. It's something I won't do. It's something no one should do. It's honorable to denounce it, especially while it is the foundation of an ongoing genocide.
I think this was simply another anti-Israel hit piece from a token Jew-token Israeli. You slipped in the word atrocities (plural!). Name ONE atrocity that Israel has committed in the Gaza. (I can name you 1200 that Hamas committed in Israel). This was a disgusting piece.
Israel can literally starve a people and you wouldn’t see a single atrocity.
Silly
It's bad whatever it is. The fact that the genocide claim has been lobbed at Israel since at least the eighties AND on Oct 7 (literally) makes me highly skeptical of the use of that term.
It actually dates back to the Soviet disinformation campaign in the 1960s as an effective cudgel against the growing American influence in the ME.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/zombie-anti-zionismZombie Anti-Zionism - Tablet Magazine
Well I only started to use it after Israel’s response to Oct 7th when it became clear that is what was happening. Don’t really care about how other people used it in the past and is logically irrelevant.
Professor, is there anything Israel can do that would lead you to support it? I don't think so. People like you, Beinart, Kristoff, Chapelle.... just don't want Israel to be.
As for Bartov, the appeal of celebrity in the Western press has probably prevented rational, analytical thoughts from being processed in his brain. The circumstances and intent in Europe during WWII and Gaza are so vastly different that to put them in one "genocide" bucket is preposterous and deranged.
That is not true. Certainly Professor Magid, Beinart and Kristoff are not arguing that Israel should not exist.
Magus, your readers are sycophants; they kiss your ass and rell you what a great scholar you are. Not me. Your main thesis contains not even the attempt at proof. There are no atrocities being committed by the IDF in the Gaza, nor genocide. Your article is bullshit.